The TIVO Challenge: reassessing Marvelle Wynne's game

I'm sure it has been addressed. The problem is that nearly every time Wynne stepped on the field during his youth career, at UCLA, and at Toronto he was the fastest player on the field. He could cover his mistakes with his speed, so he didn't have to be particularly disciplined about defending a give and go.

I've seen this a lot in youth soccer, a great athlete that gets by on his or her athleticism and doesn't refine their soccer skills. At the youth level the most skilled players are almost never the fastest players on the team.

 

Interesting. Based on those numbers other players shouldn't be able to run any of these players down while they're dribbling the ball. But it happens all the time. I have to assume the dribbling speed is when they have an open field in front of them and can afford to touch the ball several yards ahead of themselves. Clearly, Renaldo isn't going 20.7 mph when he's doing his stepovers.

 

There's also the possibility that every coach he's ever had has done everything possible to train him and he simply doesn't have the innate ability to anticipate and read a game well. This might not be the case but for some reason, on this site, I seem to see a lot of people suggest that given the right training at the right time in life any human being can become skilled with the ball at their feet or adept at reading & anticipating the game. The truth is that the potential to develop those skills at a high level begins with a natural ability. No matter how much I practiced, played and watched basketball from the time I was born, I was never going to have that preternatural vision and courtsense that a guy like (no matter how much I disliked him when he played) John Stockton had. No matter how much I practiced singing I was never going to be Pavarotti. Excelling at anything means starting with the right natural skill set and then tirelessly working to hone and apply those skills.

 

you're sure that his defending on combination play has been addressed by effective coaching?? that goes directly counter to what you've written above, but i think what you're trying to say is that he has received the coaching, he just hasn't been able to make it happen on the field. it's a lot of assumptions that you're making about how specifically he's been coached in the past, extrapolating your experience from youth soccer!

it's probably prudent to reserve for some possibility that while he is physically gifted, the fact that he is, in fact, fast doesn't necessarily mean that his experience was the same as yours at youth soccer level and just because his positioning and defending on combination play need help, it doesn't mean he'll never improve or that he'll never be an asset to the USMNT. unfortunately, he's not there now.

while it seems like, from the tenor of some comments, there are people that really want this guy to fail, given that he really does have world class speed (and how many on the USMNT do, really?), it would be a swell outcome if he improved a great deal in those areas of deficiency (crossing included!).

 

This is Eddie Johnson, Part Deux.

A flatter learning curve doesn't mean a totally flat one.

 

In general I agree. I do think there are some posters who want certain players to fail. Mostly I think it's so they can claim "victory" on these message boards. It's depressingly cynical but true. That said, there is a difference between wanting a player to fail and giving an honest assessment on whether you think they have the overall tools, or have shown evidence to support their ability, to succeed. I sincerely hope that Wynne develops into a useful, reliable international-level player. From what I've seen I'm not confident that he will. But, as often happens when I am feeling pessimistic, I truly hope to be proven wrong.

True, but it does decrease the chances of moving far enough along that learning curve within the span of peak physical condition to be effective at higher levels.

Maybe he gets better. Maybe he stays what he is. A well above average MLS right back and occasional national team player. That's a pretty darn respectable (and enviable) career is you ask me.

 

I suspect it is an even bigger assumption to suggest that a player who played for UCLA, as a professional and for the USA has not received coaching regarding defending combination play. It would be amazing even if the aforementioned coach Mike McCarthy would not have addressed it.
To be sure, this McCarthy would have.
http://watchwolverhampton.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/4dae09ac42rthy60.jpg.jpg

 

I teach kids how to defend give and go passes and I'm not a "professional" youth coach. I can't believe that he hasn't been shown, on numerous occasions at each level, the correct way to defend a give and go. I hope he does get better, but after watching that game I have to wonder how coachable he is.

 

this is like bunting in baseball....pros don't focus on it, so they are weak when asked to do it...

but in soccer, it's more mental recognition of the speed of play..

because his make-up speed worked a lot, he really didn't have to worry about higher level of game where pros just need a little light to toast you

 

I don't think your analogy works. It's much more important to a defender to be able to defend a give and go than it is to most hitters to be able to lay down a bunt. A better analogy is a second baseman being able to turn a double play. If he can't turn a double play very well he can't play second base in the major leagues. If Wynne doesn't learn to defend a give and go better, he can't play defense at an international level.

 

Welcome to BigSoccer, Mrs. Wynne.

 

i wasn't making that assumption. i was commenting that the poster had, in the prior comment, stated that the skill had not been addressed by prior coaching. i was pointing out that it was difficult to follow the line of reasoning when the author seemed to be making 2 contradictory statements.

to engage in the same kind of speculation, that's probably not how it went down during his development. if the guy is doing a poor job of defending on his flank and the ace coaching staffs to which he'd been exposed and by whom he's been molded finds that he's not "coachable," he wouldn't have continued to see the field, certainly not by the time he was at UCLA. the fact of the matter is that he continued to get PT. he was adjudged a capable defender at UCLA and elsewhere. most likely he was able to cover with his speed. most likely he didn't draw much attention to his ability to cover combination play--if it ain't broke, don't break it. but it's a pretty dramatic (and unfounded) assessment to decide, based upon coaching experience at the youth level and watching one game that a player is "uncoachable." i can't imagine too many coaches go directly from youth level to national team coaching positions!

 

I obviously was a little careless with my definitions. In the first post I should have said it hadn't been corrected instead of addressed. In the second post I meant to suggest that I was sure that at some level he had to have had several coaches who addressed the issue.

As far as seeing the field. He saw the field at UCLA and at Toronto FC because he was almost always the best athlete on the field. Because he was the best athlete on the field I think he's probably been able to get away with poor technique. But at the international level and in the top leagues, he won't be able to because some of those players are as athletic as he is.

Finally, I don't know Wynne, I have no idea how coachable he is and I never said he was uncoachable. But I do have to wonder. The alternative, that none of his coaches have ever shown him how to defend a give and go is unthinkable. By my definition it is broken if the technique is poor, so it should have been fixed.

 

Does Marvell struggling to effectively defend combination play at the senior international level mean he does not understand how to do it or that he has never performed it adequately at lower competitive levels?

Putting this another way...

Does your ability to lead a training session and coach technique on defending combination play mean you would be able to adequately defend combination play against senior international competition? Sounds silly, I know. Having the knowledge is one thing. Being able to process that knowledge at the speed of play encountered in international matches can be just as much of an inherent attribute as a player's sprinting potential.

 

Wynne needs more time to develop. I just don't think he's ready for the pace of World Cup level play. I'd like to see him get involved in the next Gold Cup and then friendlies and then some matches leading up to the 2014 World Cup

 

Its a learned reaction, but its not complicated. Once an attacking player passes the ball, the defender should immediately react to any attacking run the player might make. To often Wynne appears to get caught watching the pass, i.e. ball watching, and then has to use his speed to catch up.

 

If a player processing data slower then it's required at a specific level, chances that he will be able to overcome it, are pretty low. And mentally, a full back is the most challenging position after a goalkeeper. Tough luck.

 

Really?I'd say a central D has it harder.More angles of attack.

 

But not that many 1 on 2. And less up and down the field.

 

Well,I don't blame the back who is left 1 on 2-I blame the midfielder who isn't supporting.

I think the modern expectation of offensive support from the FB is a major development,but IMO it makes a more physically demanding position as opposed to mentally.

A wingback always has the sideline as his sweeper.

 

Yes it does, and one of the guys you cited as not having done that (Cobi Jones) is actually one of the guys who did do that. If he had been as smart a player at 21 as he was at 31, he'd have had a nice European career. Probably better than Beasley's, since he was tougher.

It usually doesn't happen, and it's not a great idea to bet on any particular player, but when you have a lot of athletes, you'll probably eventually see at least one of them become a footballer late in life.

 

I agree with this 100%. Its rare, but it does sometimes happen. I'm not going to hold my breath hoping that Wynne has an epiphany though. If he does, great, throw a Nats jersey his way. Until then, he can enjoy a nice career in Toronto, and I'll happily share a beer with him at the local pub while watching the US on TV.

 

This is great stuff and I agree with GVPATS who follows. In some cases athletic ability can be a curse, it is relied upon at the expense of development in other areas. In some ways, it is like the smart kid in school who is challenged socially.

 

Cobe Jones had always been limited by his skills. He became more experienced and wiser with age, but his soccer IQ was pretty high from day one. Beasley has better skills and he is much quicker. They both are very fast, but Cobe has never been particularly quick (at least as I remember him).

Still, may be it happens sometimes. Someone like Luca Toni might be an example. But Wynne is playing professionally for four years. I wouldn't bet on him. Especially against Alston or Franklin.

 

Its Cobi. With an I. Not an E. Kobe Bryant is with an E. Cobi Jones is with an I. He's the all time caps leader for the US. You should at least know who to spell his name. Its only four letters long.

Sorry minya. You've made some really good posts this thread. That just bothers me.