The TIVO Challenge: reassessing Marvelle Wynne's game

Good sense survives another thread....

Please keep the sprout out of direct sunlight and keep it hydrated.

 

Wynne's technique is just poor.

 

Sorry, always confuse the names. At least I didn't call him Cobi Anand.

 

I think you are correct, Klejestan was uesless and may have been more at fault in the lack of defense on our right than Wynne Unfortunately I did delete this game from my DVR immediately after watching it. For understandable reasons I think you'll agree.

 

Bingo. I think Wynne played much better than the Saprissa debacle, but still didn't play himself back into contention for the World Cup. But the "he's not ready for this level" comments didn't level out with the game I saw him play.

On a night when I thought several players like Marshall, Beckerman, Cunningham, and Kljestan were seemingly lost, I thought Wynne was a bright spot simply for a noticeable (to me) improvement over his game against Costa Rica.


btw, as for the comment about Bornstein marking no one on the second goal, he wasn't supposed to. When a defender is caught in between like that and your 6'4" teammate is marking the only option in the box, you feel pretty safe. Bornstein was there to try to stop any low cross he could get to. Marshall did a piss poor job of marking despite Bornstein directing every defender to the right spot in that situation.

 

great athletes who play soccer can get by with poor habits, because they can recover from mistakes, as the other guys ain't world elite players, where one moment, they can beat you for a goal...

i can see this slowly changing over the years, as grassroots coaching and play slowly progresses

 

Wynne hurts himself uneccessarily in a number of cases. this will sound nitpicky, but there is one spot in the 2nd half where he receives the ball while pressed up fairly high (midfield) with space in front of him and he settles the ball behind him by a half step. Not a "losing the ball in a dangerous place" situation, but more a "letting the half-step we would have on the D get away" situation. Of course, every player does this once or twice a game, but I rarely get the feeling that Wynne is a high-percentage option for grabbing a ball like that with a good touch to space to catch a team out of shape.

That said, Tony Sanneh was fairly awkward for a few years as he transitioned from attacker to mid to back, so I hold some small hope. But I think the window is closing.

 

The difference between Sanneh and Wynne is that Wynne has been a defender through college and his entire pro career.

 

Me too

 

It's harder to judge Wynne's play because we don't know how much the red card may have caused him to push forward more. We also don't know what Bradley's instructions to him were (or even if there were any to Wynne specifically).

I think "out of position" is a bit of a lazy meme. Any fullback who presses forward is going to be out of position at times. Now, some are worse at picking spots than others, but the fact remains that all attacking fullbacks are out of position at times. If a fullback looks effective going forward, he'll be more or less forgiven (or at least he ought to be). Wynne got clobbered by fans because he was getting forward and not looking effective doing it.

 

Wynne did create the corner that led to our only Goal. I just feel like the USMNT needs one speedy back like Wynne or Alston; not to create any offense but just defend. i.e. lennon

 

Off the US Soccer YouTube video, when Honduras has the breakaway on the 86th minute, Wynne starts about 20 yards away from Martinez and near the midfield line.

He catches up to the Honduran at about the 18-yard line and contests the shot that should have been a rather simple tap in (Martinez shot it more or less straight at Perkins, when he felt the pressure).

So, the guy makes up about 20 yards in a 40 yard sprint.

He may have fallen asleep a few times on his flank (the 3rd goal was also a centerhalf's (Marshall?) fault for keeping Espinoza onside) but that was 3/4th of a goal saved.

BTW, if one is coaching on the sidelines, one tells Marvell to watch the 1-2's on his flank since that was how Rueda chose to attack the US.

I ain't sure what instructions Bob was giving there.

If any at all.

 

Problem is, Wynne is a lousy defender.

 

Yeah. I'm not saying that being blindingly fast makes up for positional blunders at the international level. Because, on balance, it doesn't. But holy hell Wynne was moving on that one. On video, it looks like a special effect.

 

Perhaps Bradley did give those instructions and Wynne wasn't capable of defending properly. Or perhaps Bradley figured a player who has been a youth international for years and pro for several years would be able to recognize what Honduras was doing and would be able to adjust without the need for a Power Point presentation to explain to him what a 1-2 is.

 

Pretty much. I remember seeing Maicon getting caught at least 30-40 yards "out of position" several times in the Milan derby. However, because the rest of his team is Inter Milan, it doesn't matter.

 

i'm going to agree with what a number of people have said above--i wasn't at home when the game was on and watched the game only after reading about it here. my impression was that Wynne's game was not nearly as bad as the nasty words written about him, though it seemed like his mistakes got more frequent or noticeable as time went on (understandable when you're playing down a man for nearly the entire game). his defending wasn't THAT bad, his positioning wasn't THAT bad. (what perhaps was bad was, more often than not, what he did once he had the ball at his feet.)

he did seem to get beaten on combination play, but that can be addressed with focused coaching.

but you can't coach speed. and it's evident--this kid is f.a.s.t. blazing fast. for real fast. world-class fast. that recovery run to stymie Espinoza was unreal. he has to learn how to better use and harness his speed and get off a good cross, but seems he's worth some investment to see if he can make the progress that Bornstein has.

 

When I was in high school there was a kid on my team who was the PA state 100 m champion three years in a row. Went to Georgetown on a full track scholarship. While in college he was invited to the U.S. Olympic trials for the 400m dash. That is the definition of world class speed.

He also had the first touch of a donkey and put more shots 40 yards over the crossbar than he put in the back of the net. He scored a lot of goals and got in behind defenses with regularity. He was basically Eddie Johnson but a shitload faster. And I would never ever have wanted him on our national team.

The day US fans learn to stop drooling over a player just because they can run really really really fast in a straight line and start demanding that our players actually master basic skills like having a first touch, or playing a cross into the area instead of the upper deck is the day we might actually advance to the "next level."

 

The unfortunate concern here, is that this is defending 101. Recognize where the most danger is in the combination and make the effort to position yourself to diminish the most dangerous possibility. Marvell regularly acts like the guy who loses his paycheck every Friday to the 3 card Monte boys on the corner. Why, one would beg to say, won't he adapt?

Marvell needs to learn to delay the impact of combination passing by making more effective decisions. He will regularly rush in and force the exact pass the distributor wishes to make. World class attackers laugh their way into the next round when this happens. He will commit at the wrong time and at the wrong place on the field. The impact of these (bad) decisions is huge.

This is what keeps the U-16 crowd here crowing about giving him more looks.

Amazing, what on earth is he thinking about during an International soccer match? It's a good thing he did not decide to become a matador or a lion tamer.

"Now Marvell, we are going to go over this again . . . . one last time. There is a soccer game that is going to be played here tonight and you have got to be thinking all the time . . . Please listen to me, tonight don't let those guys get by you with the ball, remember the dangerous space is behind you, not in front of you. You don't want to read, again, what that Deuteronomy character has to say about you again, now do you Marvell? And you know if they beat you, Marve, ol' SFS is going to blame it all on 'you know who' "

 

Do FIFA rules allows a coach to have a bullhorn in the technical area?
After all, it can be a fair shout when Marvel is playing on the far side of the pitch. "Runner on your right!!!! Turn him inside! Delay, delay, delay.... OK, win the ball! Ok, give your CB an option. Slide outside - wait, back 2 steps! You're too far forward! We can't get you the ball in stride!!! Ehhh, don't worry about that cross! You'll get the next one. Man on!! Close him down! Stay with the runner! Don't dive, don't dive, don't dive! That's your man... Stay goal side! Stay ball side! Step! Step! Step! You got time... Not that much time!!!! Ah, s**t, I think the batteries to my bullhorn are dead!"

 

What would Donovan be without a great first touch and a high soccer IQ?

What would Adu be if he didn't have good vision and technical ability on the ball?

What would Chuck be if he didn't have a great center of gravity and a great instinct for goal?

Some the greatest players to ever play this game weren't gifted with amazing speed, or height, or strength. Speed is a really nice bonus that doesn't mean jack shit if it isn't a compliment to actual soccer ability.

 

I think the point is that a lot of posters (including me) aren't entirely convinced that Wynne is so deficient in those areas that his physical gifts are moot.

That said, I still don't think he's ready for prime time or that he's likely to be in the next couple years.

 

Donovan isn't just dangerous because of his speed but rather because of his ability to dribble and pass at top speed as well as his advanced understanding of the game which enables him to use that speed to great effect.

Davies is dangerous because he makes smart runs, has the technique and strength to hold the ball, and is able to take defenders on and finish.

Adu's lack of top class pace is not holding him back. Certainly it wouldn't hurt but his pace is not a limiting factor.

You can't coach speed, but sprinters without skill are a dime a dozen. They are able to get by at lower levels solely on their supreme athleticism. At higher levels the athleticism gap closes and the skill and understanding gaps widen.

Clearly you would rather have fast players with skill than slow players with skill but in the end it's the skill that is the cost of entry at the higher levels, not pace.

Wynne's pace and strength are clearly world-class. His technique is below average but trending slowly upward. His reading of the game is remedial at best.

In short, if Wynne can't refine his technical and game-reading skills, his athleticism won't mean squat. Lower tier leagues (in all sports) are littered with Harold Miners, er, I mean Marvell Wynnes.

 

Sure, that is, of course, the worry and I think the source of much of the frustration - mine included - with Wynne. He still seems excessively green and naive for a defender, even after 3 years as a pro, various U national team experience etc.

That said, he is still pretty young - he's an 86 like Davies, who really only started to blossom last year - and could possibly be a late bloomer. It appears certain he will bloom too late to help this WC cycle. There is no reason he couldn't be in the mix for the next, but he really needs to improve his touch and ability to read the game in a big way.