The Time When You Have to Play in Europe For a Callup is Near

There is nothing new in international soccer, we never have and we are not now reinventing the wheel. For any nation the domestic league will always be important and providing integral players to the pool. If this is true for every other nation and many of them far more successful, with far more foreign based talents than us; Brazil, Netherlands, Belgium, Argentina, etc.. Then it will always be true for us as well.

Even as things ebb and flow and sometimes the starting 11 might all be playing elsewhere, there we always be important domestic players in the squad. Moreover a strong domestic league is what supplies the players who go abroad for the most part. MLS seems to be waking up towards joining the global market and not resisting the reality of being a "selling" league, which would seem to be great news for all involved.

Those 2022 projections might be about right, I don't see much use in trying to project six years down the line, but there are always injuries as well and more often than not that depth is found in the domestic league. I am also uncomfortable including Weah or Pomylkal in any sort of projections for unfortunate reasons.

 

MLS has finally decided that they are a feeder league. Heck, every team outside of the top 6 of England and top 5 of Europe (RM, Bar, Juv, BM, PSG) are feeders. It's less to do with swallowing pride than it is to do with cashing in on the transfer market. They can easily build up their development system to bring in 8 figures a year on a regular basis.

 

That time will never come. There will always be opportunities for domestic players, even if we get to where we have scores of high level players at top clubs. Brazil generally has a handful of domestics on its World Cup teams, so I think we can safely say that we have a way to go before we have such a stroing European contingent that domestic players have no chance. I think it will be increasingly rare and I especially think it will be rare for a player to get into the first 11 playing in MLS.

But, we will continue to see MLS guys getting shots and I think that's perfectly fine as long as we understand that the bulk of the team will be built around European players and that for an MLS guy to make the team, he will have to be a big standout paying at that level. I'd guess these spots will be mostly young players who will eventually move or oddities like Donovan or Morris who have a chance to go but prefer playing at home, and these types of situations will always be rare as long as the rewards for going abroad are significant both in a financial and sporting regard.

 

It will happen once we hire a Euro Snob to manage the squad.

Probably Mourinho if the crazy rumor of him wanting to take over ever transpires.

 

In the Dutch squad domestic based players Bizot,Dumfries,Schuurs, Wijndal, Promes, Fer are in the squad. Blind, Koopmeiners, Boadu, Stengs, Malen, Berghuis have recently been in the squad. And the likes of Van De Beek and Veltman only recently left Holland. So like everyone else said there will always be spots for domestic based players.

 

I'm curious what you think MLS' growth strategy is. If it involves the words "USMNT" you've made a wrong turn.

If we actually do get an All-European Squad, will that cure the fanbase of the obvious inferiority complex that generates posts like these?

I'm excited because these young players are really good and we're going to win games. You seem to be excited so you can say that we have an-All Big Cllub European Team (what does that even mean?).

This stuff just reminds me of all the college football and basketball fans that care more about winning a recruiting battle than a game.

 

Bradley’s World Cup squad featured 4 MLSers and 2 from Mexico. One of them was a Donovan coming off a successful loan to Everton.

So we’d pretty much be returning to a dynamic we’ve seen before, albeit with stronger club representation.

 

Yeah, and it is interesting how a narrative is often presented around here that it was Klinsmann who wanted nothing but European players while the silly American coaches love their MLS guys, but Bradley had already settled into an approach dominated by European players well before Klinsmann came aboard. Frankly, any coach we get is going to end up with his best lineups featuring almost all players based in Europe when it all shakes out simply because the money and prestige of playing in Europe means our best and brightest will mostly play there. I have no idea why this is controversial. I think having Donovan play in MLS while being our top national team player for so many years has skewed perceptions that the team was more reliant on MLS players than was the reality. Donovan was an oulier, but the starting 11 and at least a good part of the bench when World Cups or important games roll around have been primarily European based for quite some time. Donovan was always an exception, not representative of a different philosophy. There will be room and need for MLS guys, but the real players and the keys to this team will be European-based players for the foreseeable future just as it has been for most of the past.

 

There are more and more successful yanks at higher levels in Europe than ever before and the numbers will only increase from here......this isn't a random blip.

...the standard for auto-starter/auto callup has improved, too....

Used to be a starter in Holland, say, was a lock to make the 23 and probably 11.

Now, most of those players are lucky to even be on the radar.

Just recently we have seen Bundesliga regulars (like Morales and others) not even be on the radar, either. That NEVER wouldve happened before.

Players like Vasilev playing in the EPL and not even getting much attention from a USMNT perspective never wouldve happened before, either.

Now, to get into the US team you have to be doing DAMAGE in Europe on a good team.... not merely playing on a first division squad.

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In my opinion, any rational observer knows the way transfers work. They know that a player might be good enough for a top team but not on one....or might be on a top team but not really the type to move the needle at all internationally.

Its not going to happen but I think the team should be careful about the "standard" for auto-callup/starter.

Just because say a player gets into the EPL ...doesnt mean he should necessarily be in teh 11 every game. It should be about making the best team and which players are the best together, even if they all aren't currently in the 11 best club situations.

For instance, if the striker needs to do well on crosses, be good at high press and distribution to midfield...then the player who does that should be the one chosen. could be the one on the highest level team but could also easily could be a player in MLS or other league.

There could be a player who plays in EPL but cant do those things that the system calls for....so...should that player be chosen or the one who can fit the team concept?

This is going to be the crux of how the team develops (and the key issue for the manager) as there start to be more than 23 players playing at a high level in Europe (which will happen eventually).....

 

That's my take too. And I would also add that we might see guys in the Dempsey/Altidore/Jones/Bradley category in the future too--players around 30 who could stay in Europe if they drop down in salary and league/team, but get an offer they can't refuse from MLS. For instance, I just checked Brooks' situation on Transfermarkt. His contract runs out in summer '22 when he's going to be 29. It wouldn't be at all surprising to see MLS offer him a big contract that summer and have the marketing benefit of the likely starting CB at the WC playing in MLS.

 

MLS has been gradually improving every year and "Europe" is quite a large pool of teams with a very large range of quality.

Even within the top leagues there is a wide gap in quality between top to bottom.

Your best players aren't always going to be playing on a team that matches their potential on the world stage. Whether its contract situation, player preference, etc. Too many variables. Just pick the best players for the team and don't worry about a label. The league and team they play for is just one more piece of information to consider.

 

Always in motion the future is.........

Current world events (pandemic, economic downturn) may very well impede some players from moving abroad. It will also, at least temporarily, affect which players are called in because players coming home from Europe for NT duty would likely need to quarantine before entering the US, and then again upon returning to Europe. If I'm a sporting director for a Euro Club I'd be hesitant to release players. Potentially losing key players for 4-6 weeks during the season....

The US domestic leagues are steadily improving both in terms of quality of play, but also in quality of player development. That's only going to help the national team and its' player pool.

What difference does it make what league a player plays in? As long as the 23 players on the roster are the best players for the USNT, that's all that should matter.

 

It felt that that time was near a decade ago when there were only 4 MLS players on the World Cup squad. Then MLS started paying bigger transfer fees, expanded DP slots, brought in TAM, etc. and the pendulum swung back toward higher quality American players remaining in or returning to MLS. Now the quality of American players coming through European academies appears to be higher and so a thread like this once again seems apropos. But I am sure the pendulum will continue to swing back and forth.

 

the thing is right now we are in a golden age of yanks abroad. fabian hurzeler, gatt and gyau on the wings. the tillman brothers. zelalem and renken. just stacked!

add in mortal locks ledezma, amon, gloster, soto, mendez etc and its like, "mls who?", amirite?

 

I mean we genuinely are though. In the past the guys you mentioned were our most exciting prospects, now they'd just be players to keep an eye on. Reyna, Pulisic, McKennie, Weah, Adams, Robinson, Sargent, Dest are not just some prospects we hope break through at their clubs. They're already first team players who either always start or get regular minutes. The oldest of that bunch is 23.

 

I don't disagree that The USMNT will likely still need to be relying on MLS for a long time, but to be fair let's look at some squads at The 2018 World Cup.

Croatia (2nd place) - 2 Domestic players, 1 was the 3rd string GK, and the other played a grand total of 30 minutes in the entire tournament.

Belgium (3rd Place) - 1 Domestic player, a then 23 year old for Belgium's biggest club who moved to The Premier League right after the tournament.

Uruguay (Quarter finalist) - 2 domestic players, 1 of which was a 32 year old veteran who had spent his entire career in Europe and only just returned home.

Sweden (Quarter finalist) - not a single domestic player made the squad

Brazil (Quarter finalist - 3 domestic players, 2 of which did not play a minute

Colombia (Round of 16) - 3 domestic players made the squad. 2 of which were the back up goalies.

Denmark (Round of 16) - 3 domestic players, 1 was the backup goalie, and the other 2 played for the biggest club in Denmark.

Switzerland (Round of 16) - 1 domestic player, who moved to Gladbach right after the tournament.



So there are are plenty of successful teams who do not rely on their domestic league for much of their pool

 

yes, i get the point and agree. but you just named 8 players (four of which could reasonably be in best us player of all time discussions some day). no one denies this is the most young talent weve ever had.

but its 8 players. add in brooks, yedlin, steffen, horvath and you can at least field a full team, but not close to a full roster.

then youre looking at miazga, morales etc who we can argue about all day but ultimately arent CLEARLY better than any mls alternative, beyond doubt, in ink.

so the premise of this thread comes down to kids in academies, and at least a dozen of them making it. to even fill one roster, assuming no injuries, that all the positions are covered, etc. its not close to that. but youre (correction- the premise of the thread is) saying that this current, phenomenal group is going to be the new norm. soon.

we are closer to that than weve ever been, i guess, but that doesnt mean we are especially close. we are a very long way away from mls being obsolete to the national team pool.

 

Fair enough, I don't disagree

 

Now that Cannon is leaving, I only have Morris and Altidore (and maybe a third GK) in my 23. The team is young and many of our top prospects are already abroad. That seems pretty close to me.

 

This is different from who they're calling up early & mid cycle. A quick glance at their Wiki's would display this. It's an exponentially higher % of domestics. That aids transfers. You provided some anecdotal evidence about how players are moving w/ WC as a springboard.

As I've said before, ideally early to mid cycle it's something like 60% domestics, and deep into qualifying then the WC it's more like 15%, after many of those 60% move, in part thanks to NT prestige & competition against players currently in bigger leagues.

The US is naturally going to be on the higher side than Europe considering their players are competing in international club comps, are right in their backyards of bigger leagues, they don't have single entity, etc.

Our regional rivals Mexico had 9 domestics at the last World Cup.

Historically of course some of our better players were competing in MLS. Donovan & Pope were virtual lifers. Besler was arguably our best cb for a few yrs. Adams was our best int'l for a year before going to Leipzig. Dempsey was up there. Don't think he could have transferred just off MLS play. Holden & Cameron certainly couldn't have. They were there for several years into mid 20's. Then they go right to being impactful in the Premier League.

It's a fluid situation throughout a cycle, & by the end they'll be more exception than rule, but we have to keep our minds open, or it'll be at major expense to the program again.

 

Still trying to use the USMNT to market MLS players. it is fuxking disgusting. Here we are half way through a cycle and one MLS player is finally moving.

CP and crew have changed the dynamic. I think the euro based players are going start to get frustrated with being weighted down by inferior MLS players.

 

how many of your 23 have never played a pro first team minute?

 

I think this is certainly true. I also think it is distinction that can be extremely problematic. These guys should not have to be clearly, written in ink better than MLS options. They need to at least be in the ballpark as MLS options and then both the MLS guys and the Euro guys should get shots to actually play and compete on the field. If we only accept that European based players get spots if they are star players in Europe and clearly better than all MLS options, that is a completely unfair standard for guys going abroad.

 

i agree with your post until the bolded. i didnt remotely say that any non-mls player has the burden of proof on them.

im not an mls homer and im not a eurosnob. theres a world between those poles, and trying to talk it about here anything anyone says gets distorted and pushed towards one of those extremes.

for example ive said over and over that i dont see a ton of space between long/zimmerman/robinson/mckenzie and ccv/palmer-brown (while i do see brooks and miazga as clearly- thought not necessarily by enormous leaps and bounds- above those others. thats just me).

but i think the differences in the other six are marginal. theres differences in style of play, strengths, weaknesses, experience, and yes- strength of their team/league. taking all that into account- outside of management preferences ie not wanting two lefties, or wanting one ball winner and one marker- i still dont see a clear, numbered depth chart. the only way to determine that is to give them all looks. as close to a level playing field as possible, but theres just not enough intl play to do that.

i absolutely agree theres no reason for long to get his 40th and 41st caps (or whatever it is) in friendlies when other comparable players have 2, or 10. but thats a matter of management- preferences, comfort level and biases included.

of course carter-vickers shouldnt have to win defender of the year to finally get a crack at longs spot- but on the same hand luton town isnt exactly barcelona. or everton, for that matter. thats why we need to see comparable players get comparable chances. i personally think epb is probably the best/most promising of that "second tier" cb group, but theres no way to know if he doesnt get caps.

to get back to my main point, bsky (i think) hes got a 23 right now w only two mls players. im not singling him out- there are many who feel that way. i just disagree, and dont see that as an option thats just around the corner.

ignoring the fact that any ideal 23 is literally never going to be all available at the same time, fit, in form etc. who are the 21? any of us can rattle off enough names to physically make a 25, 26 man roster for a euro camp- but theres not 20 who are in fact, in reality, better than mls options. theres not an inarguable, in practice best 11.

theres going to be undecided (at best) dual nats and kids who dont have a pro first team minute to their names and guys who are just as ho-hum as their mls-counterparts as roster fillers. oh, but they play in germany- so clearly better than anyone in cincinnati. right?

its a specious argument to say morales is better than lletget, cause oh, dusseldorf isnt trying to buy lletget, that proves it! morales was born in germany, grew up in germany, joined a german academy, played his way onto a bund2 team. he got promoted, relegated, sold to another pro/rel team on their way up. so yes, he was a bund player, now bund2 again.

but you could argue his career has more to do with geography than talent. what if he were born in cincinnati? grew up in ohio, joined the columbus academy (if that was even a thing, probably not)- but he would be an mls player. so would bund teams really be clamoring for local ohio kid made good, crew midfielder alfredo morales any more than sebastian lletget?

anyways, this is a novella at this point. theres not a roster, much less a pool, of "better" players in europe than mls. neither being in mls nor mex/sa/abroad should be a factor in comparable players/situations. thats all ive got until someone decides to completely distort what im saying (not that you did @nobody, but someone absolutely will).