Maybe having posted several Bergkamp videos on the Gullit thread it is good for me to add videos related more to Gullit again now also: This one where Gullit has the two goals of course also has a couple of notable key passes by him @Wiliam Felipe Gracek from the away game with Poland in Euros qualifying in his Ballon d'Or year: This is a good one showing him playing as an all-action forward player for Sampdoria vs Juventus in that 1993/94 season where he was the top-rated player of Serie A: You are the best contributor of Gullit footage Wiliam for sure, with your videos for assists, dribbling etc etc, but I thought I'd add some video links to help out a bit too!
Well, Maradona 1986 might be an example where very few players, Dutch or not, can compete (Cruyff 1974 perhaps can though). But some of the notable Bergkamp displays, in stats form, vis Sofascore: Scotland 1992 Minutes played 86' Goals 1 Assists 0 Shots on target 2 Shots off target 1 Shots blocked 1 Dribble attempts (succ.) 1 (1) Touches 41 Accurate passes 26/31 (84%) Key passes 2 Crosses (acc.) 0 (0) Long balls (acc.) 4 (4) Ground duels (won) 3 (2) Aerial duels (won) 1 (1) Possession lost 7 Fouls 0 Was fouled 0 Clearances 2 Blocked shots 0 Interceptions 0 Total tackles 1 Dribbled past 0 Denmark 1992 Minutes played 120' Goals 1 Assists 0 Shots on target 1 Shots off target 0 Shots blocked 2 Dribble attempts (succ.) 7 (6) Penalty shootout goal 1 Touches 59 Accurate passes 26/36 (72%) Key passes 1 Crosses (acc.) 2 (1) Long balls (acc.) 2 (2) Ground duels (won) 14 (9) Aerial duels (won) 1 (0) Possession lost 18 Fouls 0 Was fouled 1 Clearances 0 Blocked shots 1 Interceptions 1 Total tackles 2 Dribbled past 1 Belgium 1994 Minutes played 90' Goals 0 Assists 0 Shots on target 1 Shots off target 2 Shots blocked 0 Dribble attempts (succ.) 8 (7) Touches 56 Accurate passes 23/27 (85%) Key passes 3 Crosses (acc.) 1 (0) Long balls (acc.) 4 (3) Ground duels (won) 19 (10) Aerial duels (won) 0 (0) Possession lost 9 Fouls 4 Was fouled 2 Clearances 0 Blocked shots 0 Interceptions 1 Total tackles 1 Dribbled past 1 Morocco 1994 Minutes played 90' Goals 1 Assists 1 Shots on target 1 Shots off target 1 Shots blocked 0 Dribble attempts (succ.) 0 (0) Touches 51 Accurate passes 21/28 (75%) Key passes 4 Crosses (acc.) 2 (0) Long balls (acc.) 2 (1) Ground duels (won) 8 (2) Aerial duels (won) 0 (0) Possession lost 15 Fouls 0 Was fouled 2 Clearances 0 Blocked shots 0 Interceptions 1 Total tackles 0 Dribbled past 0 Brazil 1994 Minutes played 90' Goals 1 Assists 0 Shots on target 1 Shots off target 3 Shots blocked 1 Dribble attempts (succ.) 5 (3) Touches 44 Accurate passes 15/24 (63%) Key passes 0 Crosses (acc.) 0 (0) Long balls (acc.) 3 (2) Ground duels (won) 12 (7) Aerial duels (won) 2 (0) Possession lost 11 Fouls 2 Was fouled 4 Clearances 0 Blocked shots 0 Interceptions 0 Total tackles 0 Dribbled past 1 Mexico 1998 Minutes played 78' Goals 0 Assists 1 Shots on target 2 Shots off target 0 Shots blocked 0 Dribble attempts (succ.) 2 (0) Touches 53 Accurate passes 25/35 (71%) Key passes 3 Crosses (acc.) 1 (0 Long balls (acc.) 2 (1) Ground duels (won) 9 (3) Aerial duels (won) 1 (1) Possession lost 15 Fouls 1 Was fouled 1 Clearances 0 Blocked shots 0 Interceptions 2 Total tackles 2 Dribbled past 1 South Korea 1998 Minutes played 78' Goals 1 Assists 1 Shots on target 3 Shots off target 5 Shots blocked 1 Dribble attempts (succ.) 3 (2) Touches 41 Accurate passes 13/17 (76%) Key passes 2 Crosses (acc.) 1 (0) Long balls (acc.) 2 (1) Ground duels (won) 8 (3) Aerial duels (won) 2 (1) Possession lost 8 Fouls 2 Was fouled 0 Offsides 3 Clearances 0 Blocked shots 0 Interceptions 0 Total tackles 1 Dribbled past 0 Argentina 1998 Minutes played 90' Goals 1 Assists 1 Shots on target 2 Shots off target 1 Shots blocked 0 Dribble attempts (succ.) 3 (1) Touches 60 Accurate passes 23/34 (68%) Key passes 3 Crosses (acc.) 5 (1) Long balls (acc.) 1 (0) Ground duels (won) 11 (5 Aerial duels (won) 1 (0) Possession lost 20 Fouls 1 Was fouled 2 Clearances 1 Blocked shots 0 Interceptions 0 Total tackles 2 Dribbled past 0 France 2000 Minutes played 78' Goals 0 Assists 1 Shots on target 0 Shots off target 4 Shots blocked 0 Dribble attempts (succ.) 5 (3) Hit woodwork 1 Touches 61 Accurate passes 26/36 (72%) Key passes 3 Crosses (acc.) 6 (1) Long balls (acc.) 3 (2) Ground duels (won) 13 (4) Aerial duels (won) 0 (0) Possession lost 23 Fouls 4 Was fouled 0 Clearances 0 Blocked shots 0 Interceptions 0 Total tackles 1 Dribbled past 0 Yugoslavia 2000 Minutes played 90' Goals 0 Assists 2 Shots on target 3 Shots off target 0 Shots blocked 1 Dribble attempts (succ.) 2 (2) Touches 77 Accurate passes 44/54 (81%) Key passes 7 Crosses (acc.) 6 (2) Long balls (acc.) 3 (2) Big chances created 2 Ground duels (won) 12 (8) Aerial duels (won) 0 (0) Possession lost 15 Fouls 3 Was fouled 5 Clearances 0 Blocked shots 0 Interceptions 3 Total tackles 1 Dribbled past 1 Italy 2000 Minutes played 87' Goals 0 Assists 0 Shots on target 0 Shots off target 4 Shots blocked 0 Dribble attempts (succ.) 6 (3) Hit woodwork 1 Touches 66 Accurate passes 29/38 (76%) Key passes 3 Crosses (acc.) 8 (1) Long balls (acc.) 3 (3) Ground duels (won) 14 (6) Aerial duels (won) 0 (0) Possession lost 26 Fouls 1 Was fouled 3 Clearances 0 Blocked shots 0 Interceptions 0 Total tackles 0 Dribbled past 0
If you limit the time-frame from Euro 1992 to Euro 2000, which coincides with Dennis Bergkamp's appearances in major international tournaments (World Cup and European Championship), and look at the cumulative chart leader for the Netherlands national team, in terms of offensive actions with the ball, it sort of sheds light into the sort of consistent work Dennis Bergkamp was outputting. Most goals: Dennis Bergkamp (10 goals) Most assists: Dennis Bergkamp (8 assists) Most key passes: Dennis Bergkamp (59 key passes) Most successful take-ons: Dennis Bergkamp (57 successful dribbles) Now, I must admit this is largely a result of Dennis Bergkamp's tenure and longevity, but Arjen Robben is no slouch in this department, and he fails to top Dennis Bergkamp in any of the metrics apart from successful take-ons, which he has 77 of over the course of six major international tournaments. International pedigree goes beyond one memorable tournament. Dennis Bergkamp was a constant source of inspiration, direct goal threat, and ingenuity for a decade or so. Arjen Robben for me, probably does have the upper hand in terms of single tournament domination, but Dennis Bergkamp for me was the overall superior national team performer. It is not as one sided as one may presume unless peak ceiling overules everything, in which case holistic overview gets thrown out the window.
..... Marco Van Basten receiving the trophies of best striker and the best...player of the tournament .. in 1988 Marco Van Basten receiving the trophies of best striker " Golden Boot " ...and the best player of the UEFA Euro 1988 tournament . Marco van Basten .;.... Ballon D'or ...Euro-Cup ..1988 Ruud Gullit ............... Ballon D'Argent .....Euro-Cup ..1988 Frank Rijkaard ...................Ballon D'Bronze .....Euro-Cup ..1988 Team of the Tournaments Marco van Basten : 2 ( 1988, 1992 ) .........Ballon D'or ...Euro-Cup ..1988 Ruud Gullit : 2 ......( 1988, 1992 ) ........Ballon D'Argent .....Euro-Cup ..1988 Frank Rijkaard : 1.........( 1988 ) .....Ballon D'Bronze .....Euro-Cup ..1988 ...... Dennis Bergkamp : 2 ....... ( 1992, World Cup 1998 ) ======= ..... Nothing ... Euro Cup 1992 : Peter Schmeichel ...Ballon D'or Brian Laudrup .........Ballon D'Argent ..........Stefan Effenberg and Thomas Häßler drawned............. Ballon D'Bronze ... World Cup 1998 : Ronaldo Nazario ......Ballon D'or Suker .....................Ballon D'Argent Thuram ................. Ballon D'Bronze ..... West Germany 1988 (11 player squad)[34] Netherlands Hans van Breukelen Italy Giuseppe Bergomi Netherlands Frank Rijkaard Netherlands Ronald Koeman Italy Paolo Maldini Netherlands Ruud Gullit Netherlands Jan Wouters Italy Giuseppe Giannini West Germany Lothar Matthäus Netherlands Marco van Basten Italy Gianluca Vialli Sweden 1992 (11 player squad)[35] Denmark Peter Schmeichel France Jocelyn Angloma France Laurent Blanc Germany Andreas Brehme Germany Jürgen Kohler Germany Stefan Effenberg Netherlands Ruud Gullit Germany Thomas Häßler Denmark Brian Laudrup Netherlands Marco van Basten Netherlands Dennis Bergkamp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_European_Championship_awards#Team_of_the_Tournament 2014 Brazil Lionel Messi Thomas Müller Arjen Robben Arjen Robben ... was Ballon D'Bronze from this competition ...... and Dennis Bergkamp ===== nothing .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_awards
.... ... .. 1998 France FourFourTwo[57] France Lilian Thuram Brazil Ronaldo Croatia Davor Šuker Sofascore[3] Paraguay Celso Ayala France Lilian Thuram France Zinedine Zidane Castrol Football[23] France Lilian Thuram France Marcel Desailly France Bixente Lizarazu Clarin France Zinedine Zidane ESPN Deportes[58] France Zinedine Zidane
.........https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_awards ............https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_European_Championship_awards#Team_of_the_Tournament
https://www.givemesport.com/greates...6HjYEtN3GtQBp5U3rg_aem_0SmmuJHkxU9_W8rE6g7IRQ ... .. 20 Greatest Midfielders in Football History Rank Player Nationality Notable Clubs Honours 1. Diego Maradona Argentina Napoli, Barcelona 10 2. Zinedine Zidane France Juventus, Real Madrid 14 3. Michel Platini France Saint-Ettiene, Juventus 7 4. Zico Brazil Flamengo 7 5. Bobby Charlton England Manchester United 7 6. Andres Iniesta Spain Barcelona 38 7. Ruud Gullit Netherlands PSV, AC Milan, Chelsea 17 8. Luka Modric Croatia Tottenham, Real Madrid 27 9. Lothar Matthaus Germany Bayern Munich, Inter Milan 19 10. Socrates Brazil Botafogo, Fiorentina, Corinthians 6 11. Xavi Spain Barcelona 32 12. Kaka Brazil AC Milan, Real Madrid 9 13. Steven Gerrard England Liverpool 9 14. Toni Kroos Germany Bayern Munich, Real Madrid 34 15. Clarence Seedorf Netherlands AC Milan, Real Madrid 19 16. Paul Scholes England Manchester United 25 17. Patrick Vieira France Arsenal, Inter Milan 22 18. Andrea Pirlo Italy AC Milan, Inter Milan, Juventus 17 19. Claude Makelele France Marseille, Real Madrid, Chelsea 15 20. Frank Lampard England Chelsea, Manchester City 11
Ballon D'or ....Player of the Tournaments " the Major Trophies " Marco van Basten ;;;;.... is the only one Dutch Player to win Ballon D'or ...or...the best Player of the Tournament from the Euro-Cup's History ..Of ..All time .. Johan Hendrix Cruyff ;;;;; is the only one Dutch Player to win ..Ballon D'or ...or...the best Player of the Tournament from the World Cup's History ....Of ..All time Ruud Gullit ........ is the only one Dutch Player to win ..one Major Trophy as a Main true Captain ..of the National Team side... ..... Ballon D'Argent .. or Ballon D'Silver in all competitions .... : : : Golden Ball[7] World Cup and Euro -Cup .. Golden Ball ....Silver Ball ......Bronze Ball for Dutch National Team Side ... Til Today .... 2010 South Africa Diego Forlán Wesley Sneijder David Villa Ruud Gullit ....Silver Ball .. Euro-Cup 1988 ... FRank Rijkaard ....Bronze Ball ...Euro-Cup 1988 2014 Brazil Lionel Messi Thomas Müller Arjen Robben
Nice work posting those selections mate. Note that Bergkamp is included in both the 1992 Team of the Tournament and 1998 Squad of the Tournament though (playing in semi-finalist teams). Example of a very positive game review in a football magazine: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/t...e-1998-world-cup.2038458/page-3#post-39925204 "Netherlands vs South Korea Shoot Verdict: Top Skills, Exciting, Great crowd Man of the Match: Dennis Bergkamp (He linked midfield to attack with perfection and looked dangerous every time he honed in on goal. He was superb throughout) South Korea best player: Min Sung Lee Holland: Van der Sar 6, Stam 8, Numan 7 (Bogarde 6), F. De Boer 7, Jonk 7, R.De Boer 8 (Zenden 6), Davids 7, Cocu 7, Overmars 8, Bergkamp 9 (Van Hooijdonk 7) South Korea: Byung Ji Kim 6, Young Il Choi 6, Min Sung Lee 7, Hong 5, Sung Yong Choi 5 (Tae Young Kim 6), Yoo 6, Do Hoon Kim 6 (Ko 5), Sang Yoon Lee 6, Do Hoon Kim 5, Yong Soo Chol 6, Seo 6 (Dang Gook Lee 6)"
To be fair and balanced (not just pro-Bergkamp on the matter and reporting of factual selections etc) I should add that I see that there did seem to be a clarified selection of a starting UEFA European players XI and second XI, selected by coaches (with him in the second XI) and not just a FIFA Mastercard All-Star squad, in 1998 though: England Player Honours - International Tournament All-Star Teams - World Cup 1998 All-Star Teams (englandfootballonline.com) (The second XI seems to have a lot of left-backs! - probably just all of them received good support from various coaches and that XI in particular is not in a very realistic formation - it might not be shown on that page as it was intended necessarily either - potentially Maldini could have been placed as CB, Lizarzau as LB and Jarni as LW maybe in theory? - the latter did play as a wing-back of course). The wider selection for the FIFA Mastercard squad (60 players chosen before the semi-finals, with the 16 player squad and 6 extras being clarified/finalised after the semi-finals) is shown there too.
I think Dennis Bergkamp's all-time contributions for his national team in major international tournaments (World Cup and European Championship), are being somewhat overlooked. I recognize that none of his tournament narrative packs the sort of punch that etches itself onto the memory of the masses, but he was always good for me, for almost a decade, fulfilling many functions and with various teammates of differing qualities and requirements. In an alternate timeline, with a few penalty shoot-outs that goes in his favour, maybe he pulls out an extra big game performance or two during his career that can swing the narrative heavily in his favour. I'm saying that in terms of sheer output and performance on the pitch, he was really good, but maybe the stars didn't quite align. That's how I feel the cookie crumbled. I already said I rated Arjen Robben's peak-form for a single tournament higher (I also think his floor was quite a bit lower, he was sort of horrible and selfish during Euro 2012), but that is not the point I was attempting to make. In terms of raw destructive solo-carrying ability, who can really outclass Arjen Robben of 2014? Not that many in history for me, at least in my personal spectating experience. Dennis Bergkamp was more of a reliable performer for the national team side, in a method that raised his team's chances in a dependable manner, although I realize none of his efforts had the sort of satisfying ending or moments that baits all the awards and accolades. So many external factors have to align for a great player to be immortalized into the history-books based on one tournament alone, I just feel maybe Dennis Bergkamp had the ability to do it with more fortune on his side. Most Goal Involvements For Netherlands In Major International Tournaments (errors may occur, and I may have missed out on some players) 1. Dennis Bergkamp: 18 goal involvements 2. Arjen Robben: 15 goal involvements 3. Wesley Sneijder: 14 goal involvements 4. Robin van Persie: 12 goal involvements 5. Rob Rensenbrink: 11 goal involvements? 6. Johnny Rep: 10 goal involvements? Of course, goal involvements aren't everything, and Dennis Bergkamp did play a lot of games, but there is more to a player's national team legacy than a single tournament performance that you can proudly present to somebody else. In that case, wouldn't Garrincha would be a greater national team player than Pele? Dennis Bergkamp was a great player, and I am really struggling to put into words how I think he helped his teams across a variety of scenarios. Listing accolades really is insulting to the actual level of play he outputted in my opinion.
In this case then we disagree conceptually on how to evaluate a player's career. Of course I think it's important to evaluate the prime form, but for me the most important thing is the key contributions in winning titles or campaigns in which he went far. Although in prime form Robben was an even more unstoppable/effective player than Bergkamp imo. If you want to consider the overall summary of the performance of both in the World Cup and the Euro (which is a bit contradictory since you yourself said that you value the prime form more) so yes, Bergkamp had a better career in the national team although he played in Euro 92 with prime Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkaard and later came to play with Stam, Van Der Sar and Van Nistelrooy. So what you said about Robben having a better team at club level also applies to Bergkamp at international level. Sure he had an impact in the UEFA Cup but that's not a like for like comparison. Robben has reached several Champions League finals and played over 100 games. Even if you add Bergkamp's UEFA Cup career to his Champions League career, Robben's Champions League career is still far ahead.
Am I misremembering things, or was UEFA Champions League legacy that pivotal to the assessment for a player whose legacy lies mostly within the 90s? I'm sure there was a point in time when Raul Gonzalez held the record for the most UEFA Champions League goals of all-time. I still rate Dennis Bergkamp higher as a player. The emphasis on memorable national team performances have been diluted massively over the years (except when it is used selectively to win online arguments for certain fandoms), but still, since we are using a player belonging to that older landscape, shouldn't the consistent national team performances of Dennis Bergkamp have some say on the matter? Legacy aside, I legitatemly feel like he did very well, especially if you try to rate it game by game, as if we are measuring the body of work, not the measurement of the social repercussions of those games. Both are amazing players, and I don't feel like it is a simple matter of listing their resumes in terms of accolades and roles in select few trophies. That feels way too reductive for my tastes.
Attributes Points [ Comparison Style ] : {Football Manager Style } 230 ......Technical Points + 233 ...... Mental Points + 256 ..Physical Points Total Points ========== 719 Points ..... vs Dennis Bergkamp Points Technical Points : 192 + Mental `Points : 200 + Physical Points : 180 Total Points ================== 572 Points ....
What is the relevance of this here? Can you please think before you post about whether what you have posted is in any way related to the thread, whether it needs to be a post in its own right or whether it can just be combined with something else?
... I carry Ruud Gullit thRead on my shoulders did you ever do Some really relevant work on Ruud Gullit to talk about me ????? Please don't tag me without needs Neuer Goat mentioned PuckVanHeel... Not me ... !