I posted these before, but I don't remember if you saw them: (But yeah, of course, no full games available from those earlier times) (EDIT - Corrected my post now to replace the second video link - it is Napoli vs Inter, not Milan vs Napoli that I somehow inserted at first lol!)
honestly... .. Honestly, in the whole of Brazil...no one managed to do it understand to this day.. of not winning more +++titles... Also was expected in Brazil for the Netherlands to win everything ....in Football ... 1990 World Cup Euro-Cup 1992 1994 World Cup Euro Cup 1996 1998 World Cup Euro-Cup 2000 World Cup 2002 Euro Cup 2004 honestly and equally in Brazil no one believes how the Netherlands didn't win All these championships or cups played......... was seen in Brazil as a bigger favorite, there is always a win That's why I don't vote for Dennis Bergkamp It was very disappointing for me.. i saw all the championships of Dennis ...
.... with Great Images ....Faas Wilkes ... Di Stefano ... in the game in 1957 ... against Holland .. my note is 10.. What a Show was by Helmut Rahn ... !
Yes, but Wilkes was much better in 1950/51, if you understand what I mean. He was 36 years old in 1959 (ok, Di Stefano was old too, but every case is different and Wilkes seemed to rely a lot on his good agility and movements he could show as a younger player).
i was seeing this match again and again ....Germany vs Netherlands 1959... is incredible ...this game .... reminds me abit Real Madrid 7 x 3 Frankurt ,,,.. What a Show ..was til 21 : 00 minutes ... in the first Half ... Faas Wilkes 5 Dribbles Attempts 5 Dribbles Completed ... just in 21 : 00 minutes onthis match .there.. La Croqueta ... A la Michael Laudrup ... Short Dribbles .. Dribbles in speed is incredible ... in this direction Of Dribbles... there ...
Holland National Football Team side ... as a Team... was abit lesser and was abit weaker as a Team for sure ... Faas Wilkes ... was not a messiah..of the Football .. or a miracle worker ...hahahahaha !
Go to 13 : 40 minutes at video .... in the first half ... was a incredible ...La Croqueta a La Michael Laudrup ... !
Well if "no love" = I don't put him top 5, yeah, although I think at his best he was a high quality midfielder and I wouldn't scoff at something bringing him into the conversation (like you have done here I suppose).
We can agree to disagree, no problem. I don't know how well you know Bergkamp (IIRC you are quite young? - of course you are a Bayern fan too, but that itself doesn't mean you see it through Bayern-tinted glasses albeit for sure you will have seen lots of Robben playing - it's a bit like if I put forwards John Robertson or Trevor Francis as somewhere among 250 great players perhaps at least - although I am too young to have lived through their primes and followed closely in real-time being a Nottingham Forest fan can still give me a good idea about them and probably I'm unlikely to under-rate them at least, to put it that way) but if you feel you know him well enough then we indeed just disagree I suppose.
Obviously I followed Robben's career much more closely but I have an educated view of Bergkamp and Seedorf. It's a bit difficult to evaluate since they are different positions, but I believe that overall Robben was better.
Ok sure, well I guess I can add a few videos that in theory could help you know Bergkamp more (but obviously it's not the same as following closely a team Robben was playing for in real-time still): Dennis Bergkamp vs Barcelona (1999-00 UEFA Champions League) - Wembley - 1 Goal [EPIC] on Vimeo
I don't like to give too much weight to performance at NT because that corresponds to like 20% of a player's career. I prefer a more holistic analysis.
Good videos. Robben WC 2014 were better than Bergkamp WC 1998 imo. Also Bergkamp never had a CL KO run like Robben 09/10 or a CL final like Robben 12/13. You can argue about the superclub era and the relative strength of Bayern and Arsenal at their eras and that's fine but the things are what they are.
In my opinion, national team performance is a good litmus test to see how a player tends to perform in less than perfect set of tactical scenarios. It requires different set of skills and assets. Clarence Seedorf is under-appreciated my opinion, and tactically acute across various scenarios, but his national team performance was nowhere near Dennis Bergkamp's calibre. To which degree that should be punished, I am not so sure. It cannot be dismissed entirely, which is why I asked what your personal weighting would be. Arjen Robben was a force of nature, and had natural gifts that allowed his theoretical ceiling to be destructive beyond words. However, I'm not so sure if he was always using his assets correctly. I personally cannot recall a prime Dennis Bergkamp for his national team stooping to the levels displayed by a still young Arjen Robben during Euro 2012. Dennis Bergkamp for me was more consistently excellent for his national team.
Faas Wilkes Report like Football Manager Style ... Germany vs Netherlands 1959 : Faas Wilkes was a lot like Zlatan Ibrahimović .BodyBalance .Strenght .Plays one-Twos . Shoots from Distance . Shoots with Power .Free Kick .Dribbling skills .Dribbles with higher technique and accuracy % Dribbles in Speed shorter Dribbles .. Agility Pace Enganche Attacking Midfielder Acceleration Germany vs Netherlands 1959 Faas Wilkes 14 Dribbles Attempts 8 Dribbles completed ... 3 Key Passes ... negative points : He wasn't a total footballer.. as Gullit or Cruyff ... worked more with the ball at feet he only did 1 def covers ..in the whole matche s.. and 2 Interceptions .... in Def Job .... he needed to go drop deeper a lot more...to help with the Organization and Construction Playmaking of the Team ... .. Faas Wilkes ... impressed me alot ...with Dribbling Skills Agility Acceleration Pace to One Bigger Guy ... is incredible ... at all ... reminds me on Ibrahimovic mainly .. Rivaldo ...Ruud Gullit .... Van Basten .... Socrates ... Raí ...Beckenbauer ..Falcão very very Taller Players ... but with great Agility ... Pace ... Acceleration ...Dribbling Skills .. BodyBalance ....Physical Strenght ..
..... Clarence Seedorf.. For me in the Dutch National Team side it was a guy or a player who was always complaining and murmuring..all the time and all the time during his time with the Dutch National Team.. Player without much decision-making power.. he kepts filling the bag. seedorf never decided anything for the Dutch national team ... Now Robben vs Bergkamp is stick to stick !
It's maybe hard to try to compare on a like-for-like basis in terms of team success indeed I think, and I would be factoring it in (particularly the stand-out key contributions towards a trophy or going very far in a major tournament) but not as much as the evaluation of prime form and intrinsic qualities (and I understand that is not necessarily a straightforward slam dunk to Bergkamp and that we shouldn't be too biased on a stylistic basis towards the players with a more central role as the hub of a team's play as compared to wing players who make great and key contributions too from their role...but nevertheless I tend to see Bergkamp as a 'better' player myself). I wouldn't tend to agree on Robben 2014 over Bergkamp 1998 for World Cups I don't think myself, although I realise it's not an outlandish call, but I'd say although Robben clearly has more than 2014 on his positive World Cup resume, that Bergkamp with 1994 and 1998 together has the better top two tournaments individually anyway IMO. And then adding in the Euros too (excellent in 92, contributing excellent key passes and assists in 2000, and having his moments in 1996 albeit not out-performing expectations/potential that time or even performing up to them probably overall that summer). Bergkamp did also have success and impact in the old UEFA Cup He didn't play in the Champions League until he was close to 30, and he missed quite a lot of CL games. I'd say that his physical peak didn't coincide with Arsenal's best teams (while Robben did have a general peak period where Bayern was a major contender - for sure though he made some major contributions in the Champions League in that time though and was one of their most key performers of course). By 1998/99 Arsenal for sure had a high quality team/squad that was very close with Man United domestically, but in the Champions League that season they lost every game that Bergkamp missed (and none of the ones he played in). In 2001/02 he played a key part in impressive wins vs finalists Leverkusen and Italian giants Juventus for example.
Great Theme ! For example ... Peter Gabriel 1978 ... you have some competition to show us ...about Dennis Bergkamp ???? 1992 euro-cup ... world Cup 1994 ... Euro-Cup 1996 ... World Cup 1998 ... Euro-Cup 2000 ??? For example as Diego Armando Maradona 1986 7 Matches 5 Goals 5 Assists 1 Pre-Assist 30 Shots Attempts 14 Shots on Target 46 % Shots on Target ratio % ... 118 ......Dribbles Attempts 65....... Dribbles completed Record Of dribbles in a single edition ..among Mané Garrincha ...1962 ..with 62 Dribbles.... 9, 28 .. Dribbles made per 90 minutes ... 56 %...... dribbles accuracy % 42 Key-Passes 27 Big chances created 600 Touches on the Ball .. 11 ..Tackles Won % no Red Cards ... 53 Fouls received 16.. Def Covers 13 ...Interceptions % 6..... Headers Won % 23 ....Duels Won % 3 .... Def Blocks ... 2.... Clearances .. 81 % Passing Accuracy ...% Awards : Player of the Tournament Ballon D'or the best player .. .............. Dennis Bergkamp has something like this in World Cups or Euro_cups ??? something extremely memorable to remember except the game against Argentina in 1998 that he provided assistance and a goal ????