The "Thoughts That Don't Require Their Own Thread" Thread

Just a hypothetical, If someday the Revs are in first place or even champion and the Patriots concurrently have a total bust season, would Pat's fans begin to scapegoat the Revs, or do they hardly think of the Revs?

 

I'm a Pat's fan too. Have been all my life. How am I not connected to the real world?

 

As others have said, no one expects the same level of commitment, interest, passion, etc. as they put toward the Patriots. The only thing we are asking is to gather up the crumbs under the table. Even that appears to be too much.

As Seamus said, there are other MLS clubs who are owned by "Patriots-equivalent" teams in other sports, but yet they manage to put in a reasonable effort. The funny thing is, it actually shows. Many of those teams are the most successful businesses in the league.

Crazy thing is, maybe it is the ownership groups who were doing a lot of things that built up their "primary" sports business into a successful model, and they - gasp! - decided to do the same things with their MLS teams and they became successful. I can't imagine the Krafts didn't think of that, I mean they are savvy businessmen after all. But what do I know, I didn't go to no fancy schmancy Ivory League school like they both did...

As Doctor Evil would say, "Throw me a frickin' bone"

 

Really Monty? Wow, your handle wouldn't suggest it!

 

Brad Feldman is announcing the FC Dallas v. nyrb game. That guy gets around, probally because what Kraft is paying him isn't enough to pay the bills.

 

I seriously do think he pays attention and cares a lot about the Revs. Just because there has evolved a "meme" of mythic proportions about how he doesn't care I think the know anything about the man as a sportsman says he incapable of not caring for a sports franchise he owns. People may not like the choices he makes and use him as lightening rod for their anger at our results over the past few years but to think he's not aware of whats happening with the Revs and is on the backs of his underlings to right the ship is illogical.

 

A poster recently used the term echo chamber to describe this forum - clever, I thought, and apt. You're right that the response by this board to the current situation has been to repeatedly demonize the Krafts. The question is: Who is uniquely able to change this perception?

In a way, it's like the old theological dilemma: How can God be all knowing, all powerful, and purely good, while evil and suffering exist in the world He is said to have created? We are assuming that the the status quo has been deteriorating for years, and that the Kraft ownership is (and has been) powerful enough to make changes. How can the ownership be both well-intended and knowledgeable? Why should the dedicated fans be content to say that the Krafts move in mysterious ways, and that it's not our place to question them?

 

The answer is because he gave us free will to choose between good and evil.

Yup, the die hards need to question this ownership especially when there is no media willing to ask the tough questions.

 

I don't think that question was meant to be answered.

 

---but the Wisdom Traditions answer the question.

Evil doesn't exist. Evil is just the absence of Good. Only Good exists. As humans, our problem is perception and our fatal flaw of being unable to tell Truth from falsehood (the absence of Truth).

Now--back to our discussion of this Boards
epic myth "memes".

 

For what it's worth, we also have the free choice to stop paying the Krafts for a shitty product.

 

Um...I believe FC Dallas asked him to fill in for the recently deceased Bobby Rhine. He thanked them for that opportunity and was available because the Revs were on FSC.

 

My statement is based on logic (as my mind assesses the data points). The most significant reality that leads me to believe he cares is he's a Sportsman. Sportsman really hold winning a the most important thin. The same goes for Nicol. Nicol is a soccer player whose now a Coach. When people accuse either of not being committed to winning---that's not logical.

A lot of smack is thrown at Mr Kraft for not doing what individuals on this Board think he should be doing. All that is pure personal conjecture and opinion by people who do not have all the facts or choose to ignore facts that don't support their position . People accuse Mr Kraft of being cheap is dealing with the Revs. Fact is he's been consistent in the way he manages both his franchises. The Patriots budget is a very different order of magnitude but he's been just as "frugal" with how he handles their budget. I offer as evidence that he's let Pro Bowl level players walk because he's not been willing to pay what their asking as a raise.

As to building a SSS, his position has been they are committed that project and I see no reason to doubt his word. The facts as to how difficult it is to do that project in Boston has been discussed at length. DCU is in the same boat. IFNM, NY never solved the issue and located in the berbs.

The last three years have been tough for us fans to tolerate but that's been after a significant period where the Revs were one of MLS top teams. The franchise has been struggling in their efforts to right the ship. Is that Mr Krafts fault ? Some argue he should replace his entire management from COO to Coaches. That's not a sure fix. How well has that worked for Toronto? How well has that done for NY? How has that worked for DCU? How long will he tolerate our current level of play and bottom of the table status? I don't know but I suspect the leash is getting short. For a Sportsman winning really is important. The Revs were a winning franchise and now are bottom feeders. I don't believe he will tolerate that for much longer.

Let me ask---what rational do you have to support the many contentions leveled at Mr Kraft suggesting that he doesn't care about the Revs?

 

Mr. Bill Parcels: "You are what your record says you are."

 

The Revs are who we thought they were

 

Doc, I am sure that they "care" in that it was a hell of a lot more fun in the middle '00s than it is now. Winning is great and losing sucks, and no one will disagree. It's just a matter of what you are willing to do in order to keep winning (from the late '00s) and maintain that, or let the club free-fall to the point that every single team in the US is better than us. At least with Montreal coming into the league we can keep that record intact next year.

Yes, people offer ideas on what "should" be done. Imagine that - sports fans having those kinds of opinions on their favorite teams. I bet that would never happen with the other 4 major teams in town.

However, the bolded part is dead-wrong. Do you for one second think that he'd let the status quo drag on if the Super Bowl contenders slipped to a 9-7 team one year and the next year went to 6-10, and the third year to 4-12 and he'd still keep the coach and the player personnel director? Do you? I admit that I don't follow the Pats closely enough to remember if the Pete Carroll years were under Kraft, but they needed to make a change and they did. And you can bet if Bellichick's magic fades in the next couple of years, he will be gone too.

As for Nicol and Burns, you've posted in the past that you believe that Burns is at fault for some of the bad player acquistions and Nicol is largely blameless. Again, none of us know for sure the division of responsibility, but it ain't working. Presumably, Kraft knows this, and he knows who is responsible for the decisions that didn't work out. If this was the Pats, he would surely take action.

The SSS is more of a long-range business decision. And while I agree that this is not something they should do lightly, let's just say I don't share your optimism and enthusiasm for trusting that some day we'll wake up and hear of an announcement out of the blue. I just don't see him spending this kind of money on the Revs if he isn't even willing to hire a couple of scouts so Nicol doesn't have to either forego scouting for 9 months out of the year or leave the team when he's supposed to be coaching, or watch DVDs.

Ultimately, it is on Mr. Kraft. Yes, there was a great period of success, but even then, we didn't use our resources very well. In order to sustain that success, the team needed to plan ahead. We all can clearly see that hasn't happened. Many of us had said (year after year) that we needed to have new players signed by the start of training camp, or at least by the start of the season. But they have always done too little, too late.

You're right that we don't have the facts as to whether Nicol is incompetent at this part of the job or he would be good at it, but he is hamstrung by the lack of resources provided by the organization, or some other factor. You're correct, we don't know. But we do know that it is one of these, or some variation, and ultimately it comes down to Kraft.

In this case, he either needs to replace the model that clearly doesn't work (both on the busines and playing side) or, if it is a matter of the "right" people being in place, but they don't have the resources, then he needs to give them what they need in order to be successful. Personally, I don't think it is the latter -- they have spent more money on player acquisitions this year than I can remember. Kraft rightfully trusted his "soccer people" to go out and get players, but unfiortunately, the "soccer people" have repeatedly made bad choices.

On the business side, this team is totally irrelevant. The alleged COO wears at least two other hats (how many COOs of companies out there are not fully devoted to their job, even if they might sit on a board somewhere), and Revolution attendance and overall interest has waned. Just because they can snag a couple of high-profile games to fill the coffers and boost the "soccer" side of revenue does not mask the total and utter failure of the Revolution as a business. Is there any team in MLS who is in worse shape as a business? DCU has stadium issues of their own, but at least as a stand-alone entity, they are poised to be in a much better place than we will be in 5 years.

 

I think that when you make logical conclusions from the subset of facts that you choose to promote it is, just like the rest of us, an opinion. Whether intended or not, your reply reads like you make better observations than anyone else because your are using logic and, by implication, the rest of us are just emotional.

Mr. Kraft is not consistent. With the Pats his policy is to get good value on player while ALSO fielding a team that is superior (near the top of the table) in the league. With the REVs it is to, and I use the term loosely, get good value on players while having no concern where the team finishes. Sorry to mock you but, "I offer as evidence" that he has watched the team sink into an ever deeper state of funk for 3++ years without making any fundamental change in how that team operates. Just as you said you do not believe Mr. Kraft will tolerate this much longer, I don't believe he would ever have tolerated this with the Pats half as long. Why? Because of the extra requirement on that team to be superior.

I have no problem with the position you describe. However, IMHO, Brian Biello, a Kraft Group talking head, routinely uses the imminent arrival of a SSS (12-24 months, sic) as a filler to blow up our backsides at fan gatherings. That bothers me. Just shut up Brian.

I am still not convinced this organisation would ever have had success if two teams had not folded. Every discussion of that "successful" team, built over 1/2 a decade ago, has an asterisk next to it that says "*Miami and Tampa folded."

Since we are currently looking up their backsides, I'd have to say the DCU and NY look like they've worked out better than our eternal "stay the course" approach.

Like I said, I don't believe he'd ever have let it go this long with the Pats.

1. He did not publicly comment on the Joe Public home game. It really required a comment/explanation.

2. Mike Burns still has a job. Even if you have faith in SN, that experiment ended at least 2 years ago.

3. I don't recall hearing a peep from him about this season and we're well past the point where an owner should comment to his fan base.

4. SN still has his job.

 

and we're letting them off the hook

 

playoffs!?!

 

Practice - you talkin about practice?

To weigh in on the current topic at hand, I have a couple of thoughts:

The Pats have been successful with a "value model" on their players and I would argue that the Revs try to follow a similar value model. What are the differences in the two situations? First is that the Revs are minor league (not a value judgement on the team, but rather a comment on MLS not being the top league in the world). There's a lot more competition for the Revs' player pool -- maybe 25 to 50 times as many comparable teams as the Pats compete with for talent. Second is the scouting and player evaluation -- how do you know you're getting a bargain if you don't have a fair valuation of the player's skills?

On the Krafts' commitment to the team meme, my personal opinion is that Bob and Jon care, but don't have the wherewithal to know how to improve/grow the team. The meme that truly bugs me is that the Revs are just a tax write off to the Bob. Unless you're Enron, having a write-off is only worth much if you're looking for a profit in the future (either by selling the franchise at a profit or through growth).