The State of The DC United Board Portions of this discussion derive from this thread. This is one of the busiest boards at BigSoccer.com. It's also one with a long tradition of high quality discussion. I think we all have an interest in keeping it that way, and I think, ultimately, that’s what we all want. If we weren’t looking for those things we probably wouldn’t be here. But it’s been a long time since we talked about the state of the board, and hemmed and hawed about how things are run here. It’s been a few years in fact. The last time we talked about things was back when we decided as a board to have heavily moderated pre and post match threads to help insure high quality discussion during the season. If you weren’t around for that decision, well that’s where all the “no flames, no troll” stuff derives from. Since then we’ve added a procedure here and a standard there on a more or less ad-hoc basis. I guess sometime during those years I drew up the FAQ to write down some of the standards and procedures we’d been using but that wasn’t much more than a codification of what was being done anyway. And while I think the board runs basically alright, I have been thinking since round about the New Year that we should revisit some things before the season starts. My reasons are these: First, we’ve grown a lot, and many people weren’t around when this board’s culture got established. Second, we’ve grown a lot, and maybe there’s cause now for some of that board culture to change. Third, there are some things that I don’t think are working, and now is a good time to address them. Fourth, there are some conflicts that need to be resolved for the good of the board. That’s all I’ve got to say by means of an introduction. Let’s talk about the state of the board. I’ve got some things to say and I hope others do too. Post your concerns, questions, thoughts and ideas below for others to comment upon. Oh, one more thing, just for reference here’s a link to the current DC United board FAQ. ------------------ What follows are the things I’ve been thinking need to be addressed. Some I’ve got definite opinions about. Others I really don’t. All of it’s debatable and I’m sure I’m overlooking a number of things. Official Match Threads We started having these years ago for a few reasons. First, this board was often over-run by trolls, and merely enforcing the TOS wasn’t enough to insure quality discussion. The “no flames, no trolls” line was fair warning that the threads would be moderated above and beyond the TOS. Second, there was some sense at the time that discussion quality had begun to slip. The official threads, because they were for serious discussion only, insured a place for thoughtful analysis, well considered opinions, and real information. Third, the board was just starting to grow rapidly then. There were times when we had several basically similar threads all talking about the same match. It was disorganized, it was hard to have a discussion, and it just made practical sense to have designated match threads. I have two concerns about the official threads though. I’m not sure how I want to phrase this but I tend to think “chest-thumping” posts even from DC United supporters are out of place on the match threads. I’m not talking about celebratory posts after a good match. I’m talking swaggering shows of bravado before or after a match. It’s just not serious discussion. Post it elsewhere, but I just think it detracts from discussion on the match threads. Second, I think making predictions has eclipsed a lot of the discussion and analysis that we used to have on the pre-match threads. Predictions are fine, but I think we should always try to have serious analysis behind them. Indeed, I actually think these two concerns are related in part. There was a tendency from some posters to predict improbable wins apparently just as a show of bravado. They’d offer no analysis and didn’t give any reasons. It was swagger and testosterone. I’d like to see us get away from that and really emphasize serious discussion in those threads. Posting Etiquette The [R] policy: This is BigSoccer.com’s policy. We can’t unilaterally change it. So from my perspective there’s not much point in us discussing it since it’s not really up to us. Player and Coach Bashing vs Player and Coach Criticism: This is the language we have now: “Player and coach (and administrator) bashing is a time honored tradition on the DC United board. Hang around here long enough and every single person involved with the team will eventually be taken to task without regard to salary, stature, performance or (even) reality. Please expect this and try not to be too offended when your favorite player gets roasted.” This seemed like a good idea at the time, and the spirit of this idea is well intentioned, but I think we need to modify this. We originally added this to the FAQ to deal with those who were offended when their favorite players were criticized. At the time the problem seemed to be that certain people were unreasonably upset even when criticism was justified. Our instinct was that those who were offended were just too sensitive. I think that was the wrong response. As much as I think we all have to be prepared to deal with our favorite players getting criticized (justly or not) I also think we need to be more sensitive to others on the board. My sense is this: if you’re offering calm, measured criticism of a player’s performance or attitude or whatever, that’s fine, and nobody should take offense to that. But if you’re bashing a player or taking pot-shots at him, then I think that’s unreasonable. Indeed, I’d argue it at least verges on trolling. My sense is that many of us stepped over that line. I know I have. In short, I think we should distinguish between bashing and criticism and say that while criticism is OK, bashing is not. In suggesting this distinction I don’t think I’m saying we should prohibit any perspectives or opinions from the board. We want the widest diversity of opinions and perspective possible here. But there are many ways to express an opinion and some are more diplomatic and respectful than others. So it’s not about what we say, but how we say it. Any criticism could be said differently and become bashing, and any bashing could be said differently and become criticism. It’s just a matter of how diplomatic and civil you are and how much evidence and argument you offer. I guess a rule of thumb would be this: criticism is thoughtful, bashing is thoughtless. Questioning each other’s support of the team: I think it’s really offensive when folks on this board question each other’s support for the team. It’s just ugly when that happens, and I wish we could avoid it. As long as you’re loyal to the team through good times and bad that’s good enough for me. I think it should be good enough for everyone. Are there times for challenging another’s support? Probably. If your support for the team depends solely on DC United having some one or another player, then I’d say it’s fair to challenge your support of the team. If you claim allegiance to DC United and another MLS team, then I’d say that’s fair too. But those are pretty rare things. I think this is going to be more and more an issue in the future. I suspect we’re going to get a lot of new supporters because of Freddy Adu. I suspect many of them won’t be at RFK every week, and I’d bet a fair number of them hail from places other than DC. As long as they bleed the team – and not just Freddy - they should be welcome here, and I don’t think their support should be questioned. Trolls who support DC United: This is probably the most controversial thing I’m going to say. Some people seem to think that trolls are necessarily supporters of another team. I don’t think that’s true at all. There are a handful of trolls on this board who very much support DC United. I don’t think we should maintain a double standard for them. If we’re going to be serious about controlling trolls, then we can’t make an exception just because their team is DC United. If you’re trolling, and you’re undermining the quality of discussion, supporting DC United shouldn’t excuse your conduct. I think it’s worth noting what happened to the Metros board in this regard. The Metros board was too clubby, and let their own posters get away with murder. That board used to have quality posters and some good discussions. But the trolling by MetroFans on their own board eventually crowded out any real discussion. A lot of the good posters left, and just recently the board simply imploded, and many posters are jumping ship and going over to MetroFanatic. We’re a long way from that, but it’s worth thinking about. I don’t want that to happen here. But if we start excusing trolls just because they support DC United then I fear we might be heading down a slippery slope. Other Things The following segues somewhat from the discussion above about trolls who support DC United. I’ll explain how below. The Need for Détente: There was a veritable civil war on this board the last few years. The dividing lines were pretty clear, and I doubt I need to go into them at all. Everyone on this board knows what they were. Tempers were often very heated. Tensions have been pretty high at times. Folks were frustrated and there was quite a bit of belligerence from all sides. I very much include myself in those remarks. Some of those habits of belligerence are hard to break and I think there’s still some bitterness from all sides. I became very conscious of my own belligerence some time ago and have tried to curb those old habits. I hope others will try to do the same thing. I think we’ve got to make an effort to relax all those tensions and repair those relations. The FAQ concludes by saying that “While posting on this board try to remember that despite the fact that we all have different perspectives and opinions we all do support the same team.” That’s an idea we should get back to. I think many of our most controversial debates over the last couple years lost sight of that. Things too often got framed in an us versus them, with us or against us fashion. That sort of frame leads to a basically intolerable situation for discussion because it means that anything said by one side, from the perspective of the other side, is belligerent trolling. (Hence the connection with the above discussion.) This effectively suffocates all respectful discussion and debate. In short, it undermines the goal of this entire board. It’s time to take notice of this problem and address it. It’s a new era with the team and lots of those old conflicts are now moot. Perhaps we could take advantage of this moment to make peace amongst ourselves. Freddy Adu: Maybe I’m just paranoid, but I’m worried that this place is going to become the Freddy Adu board. Do we need to take steps to insure that it doesn’t? Do folks want an official Freddy Adu thread like they have on the Quakes board for Landon Donovan (and some others). I honestly don’t know, and we don’t really have to make a decision on this now, but as long as we’re discussing things I thought I’d ask. Broad MLS discussions: Serie Zed posted this in the other thread: “The boards have become too atomized because you can't come to (for example) the DC United forum and read about a whopper of an MLS trade if it doesn't involve DC. I miss a lot of stuff now because it's placed in one place and one place only, and who has time to visit 20 forums? If you absolutely MUST do this segmenting (and given that all the moderators all seem to do it, I'm guessing that it's on page A1 of the guide these days), can't we at least post links to the other threads? Like you do when one has been "moved".” Broad MLS discussion is fine with me but I don’t think it should be allowed to take over the board. People come here for discussion about DC United. Perhaps we should have a specific thread for general MLS discussion. That way it’s there for folks that want it, but folks that don’t can easily ignore it. On the other hand, sometimes there’s general MLS news that really does bear on DC United like when Thornton went to Portugal. But in those cases we should weigh carefully whether it really deserves its own thread. Also, I suspect you can get away with a lot by labeling things “DC United edition.” The main point of that label is so we don’t get random folks wandering over here from BigSoccerLive or the FoxSportsWorld website. ------------------ That's all for me for now. Please feel free to comment on anything I've said, and as already requested above, please post your concerns, questions, thoughts and ideas below for others to see.
Hey Knave, Nice post. I've been around for the death of a few message boards in my time, and it seems to me that this one is far from that point. As a lurker most of the time, my view is that even our wars are pretty civil (get it, civil war, hahaha, oh never mind), and people pretty often let bygones be. Full and free discussion is important, and sometimes the protracted disagreements and feuds make things more interesting, so long as they don't get too out of hand. In other words, I'm happy with the level of moderation here and think you can keep a steady course without too much fixing what ain't broke. I agree with most of what you said in your posts on specific topics but let me chime in with my opinion where you asked for it. Freddy Adu: A permanent thread is a good idea. I think there should be a legitimate spot for the inevitable teeny boppers that will come by posting about how cute Freddy Adu is. Or is he, I can't tell, I'm too male and too old. I don't want to read about it fifty times a week. But I also don't want to come across as grumpy old men to the potential 2012 season ticket holders. They're newly interested in soccer and I don't want them to think its dumb because those internet nuts at BS were mean to them and said they couldn't post about Freddy's favorite color. They should have room to post if they want, and there's certainly room for them here. Just make it clear that we can't start a new thread everytime Freddy gets a hair cut. Broad discussions: I have to say, I'm all for it. I'd much rather post about an MNT game, or big moves in the MLS, or SSSs (or chicks and Irish whiskey for that matter) on this board. The MNT boards are nowhere near as inciteful and by the time you've read through the 50th "Boy we sucked today" post, you've really lost your own desire to comment on the game. The people whose comments I want to hear about the MNT games and the MLS, mostly post at DCU, and I'd like to read their opinions here. Alright, my two cents. Take it for what its worth after all, I'm way closer to Moscow than I am to DC. Peace out and I hear Freddy's favorite color is green. Just like mine!
The community thread is too long. Too many posts are split from discussions in which the posts are relevant. Posting something controversial about a player or coach is not trolling, it is expressing an opinion contrary to what the majority might think. This forum is overmoderated. This is a message board. Lighten up. Conversations go off-topic sometimes, both on a board and in real life. That's ultimately what this place is - a conversation centered around DC United. That's one thing everyone here has in common. Oh, and while you're at it, list the names of the DC United supporters you think are trolls, Knave. I know McOwen is one. Who else? Finally, if you think moderating this board is so difficult, why not just quit?
Here is my $.02 on the subjects at hand. Official Match Threads: On several occasions I missed out on iformation because I don't read the pre-match threads. Such as player injuries and such. I stopped reading the threads because I got tired of every third then every other post being a DC United-5 Colorado-2 post. I feel that a seperate predictions thread should be started. Thus keeping the pre-match thread to relavent information and discussion. (i.e. What formation will we use, how will we adpat to player-x's injury, how will we take advantage of player-y's injury.) Player and coach bashing: I myself have danced along this line as well. I however always try to backup my statment with stats( which are sometimes meaningless) and tactical analysis. As long as the people I am discussing a player or coach with are also doing this I have always respected there opinions even if I don't agree with them. Just ask BudWiser as we have gone a few rounds before but I always respect his opinions and insite while at times not agreeing with him. The need for peace on these boards: I think things will settle down here for a while as sadly one of the two sides in the recent civil war has lost their banner, still a sad day indeed despite my being from the other side of that war. Again as I stated above I have tried to always respect the other side opinions. Freddy Adu: I am wary of have having an Offcial Freddy Adu thread. As Freddy has shown so far to be a very humble kid I think we should follow his lead and maintain a low-key atmosphere about him. As I feel confident about the fact that he will spawn many a incitefull discussion I think we should treat him as any other player on this team. Broad MLS and Soccer discussions: I think it would be good to have a thread covering this. I would have to agree with skippy in saying that one of the better aspects of this board is the incitefull nature of the discussions and posters here. I prefer to disagree with friends than agree wth strangers.
My biggest complaint is the lumping of topics together thus forming topics with well over 50 posts. For example, a particular match may have 2 or 3 major incidents. Each should be allowed a separate topic to avoid having to ********** filter everything that is not related to what you are concerned with. Every game last season had huge numbers of posts and it tends to make me far less likely to read because "the match" as a whole is far too broad a topic and most of the posts are not interesting or informative.
as a newcomer lastyear i just couldn't understand some of the pessimistic fans (sorman, etc.) i came across trollish and when i noticed that everbody who had been posting for more than a year seemed to really value his opinion even if they totally disagreed, i had to re-think my attitude about questioning other fans loyalty to DC United. Sorry about that. And to me the forum is slightly over moderated, but while i don't like it, i do like the feeling of commradaery (sp). I mean different views are nessecary and people will get bent out of shape, but from what ive seen from most DC United fans here is the feeling of "i respect your opinion....but your still a stupidhead" It would be pretty dull if everybody argeed all the time, right?
Although I'm not going to cite any specific posts or incidents, I'd like to say I'm pleased with the moderators. It's because of the moderators that the DC United BS board has grown strong while the virtually unmoderated Screaming Eagles list has gone south. Thank you, mods, for your time, effort, and diligence.
Agreed. I have fun w/the back-and-forth; it's never on a personal level. And I never see my opinion as better or worse than anyone else's here. I agree w/what Lastort said. I wonder why on average I would guess 1/3-1/4 of every thread is moderated here (either started by a mod or moderated in a way such as the title changed), and that doesn't include posts moved/deleted. Is the DC United brass requesting the enforcement of heavy moderation and 5 pages of explanation as to what this board is about?
FYI, the SEs don't run that list anymore (we took our name off of it a year ago). It just exists in cyberspace. K
Repeat after me: No Freddy Thread. Period. This isn't the Quakes forum where a hundred screaming teens are swooning over Donovan. The community thread, while well intentioned, is a mess and a dumping ground. A Freddy thread would be the same.
While a little inrospection goes along way, my belief is that if you have to ask to many questions and set to many rules that it's time to move on and let go. Let the other moderators make decisions for awhile. See what happens. Maybe the community is happy with it, maybe not. Maybe it's your issue, maybe not. Let it go for a while Knave. Yabo
From what I can tell, 9 of the top 11 threads on this board, including 7 of the top 7, are either from moderators, about moderators, or edited by moderators
I think the moderation on the board is fine. You all do a great job. I can see where Post Subject changes and moving another baseball-related post to the "official" thread can be necessary. You just can't be snippy about it when moving it. Some new people may not know that on page 12 there is an "official" DCSEC thread when they post a link to the latest fountain of misinformation from them. And since it is new, some people may miss the post, as they stop reading threads after they die, only to come back to life once a month or so. I would love to see predictions and predictions of lineups split from the Official match thread and into their own. I think we should have our own DC United editions of threads such as USMNT games, MLS trades and the like. As long as it's labeled properly, everyone who isn't interested in the Olympic Qualifying will know to skip it. No one is forced to read every thread, and I certainly don't. We should be able to start new threads on Freddy, and once they die after 2 or 3 days, then they can be moved to the "official" Freddy thread. Maybe this can apply to all the "official" threads (baseball, stadium, cable, etc.) I think we can have fun on the board as well, as long as the "official" threads are kept clean, threads with back and forth between supporters, criticism of the team, the management, the facilities, other teams, fans, other teams fans, players and mis-management, the refs and the League, other leagues, other leagues fans and the like should be kept. Moderate them only to the extent that you read them and post a warning if some line (racism, very personal attacks) gets crossed. Thx, Jay!
This is not true. There are three people on this board who have an obligation to read every post in every thread. I'm not saying that I don't want to do that or that I want to give up being a moderator, just clarifying that in fact there are people who do read everything on this board. You do understand that one of our duties is to drive traffic on the DC United board. Hence why we start some threads when things "die down" a bit...
Interesting rumination from Knave and pretty good advice from yabo regarding too many rules. Not saying you should leave, Knave, but taking a personal chill-pill is timely if your tummy is wound up in knots. Perspective call -- this is an anonymous Internet discussion group. It will not be tidy by definition, so please don't get an ulcer over it. Looks like hilarious sig material to me! Can I hear a big AMEN? Regarding questioning fan loyalty, I would guess that several of you think that I am one of the most egregious of this type of poster. I have offered apologies on occasion in the past, and I'm stubborn enough to know that I'll probably have to do so in the future too. As in EdTheRed's comments on the bashing players, et. al, so too should such comments be based when discussing attitudes or practices of other fans. So called "civil wars" are the most destructive. I'll try to keep this in mind for DC fans. To all of us stupidheads I would say: try to remember jackrock's hilarious comment, count to ten before pressing the Submit button and re-read your post once it is on the forum in case you've made a bad choice. peace out. GM
Look-you don't know this for certain-I mean who told you that-are you just guessing. Therefore, I think your post belongs on the Near News and Rumors thread I suggest you drive it there Oh wait-your duty to be a mod belongs on the FAQ thread people need to know that if that's official mod policy Wait a second-don't we ALREADY HAVE a moderators thread?? It belongs THERE!! Let's put it there Hey come to think of it the threads are getting too long where we're driving them to-why don't we come up w/new rules or drop the thread-let's start a discussion about where we're driving Seriously, yes I understand the need to drive traffic. As I'm sure you understand the fact that traffic can be driven to the point of absurdity.
First of all, thanks to the Mods for the work that they do. It makes my visits to BS much more enjoyable. Moderators by definition must exercise judgement. I may not always agree with you but it is a very necessary evil and one I gladly accept in exchange for an informative, insightful board with minimal crap to wade through. Adu Monster Thread: This board is as much about news for me as it is about conversation, analysis and general info. As such, I would truly HATE one long 73 page Adu thread. Who would have time to wade through such a thing. I am happy to have the Mods monitor individual threads, merging similar topics as appropriate but please don't create a single Adu thread. Official Pre-Match/Match Threads: I also feel that a separate predictions thread should be started so that the pre-match thread can be limited to relevant information and discussion. However, I think it overreaching to try to weed out “chest-thumping” posts and would argue against even trying to. It not serious discussion but not every post will be, not even in the official match thread. Trolling? never, Bravado? I can live with that. Player and coach bashing: This is often more an issue of one's class or lack thereof and I again defer to the Mods to at least keep it on the right side of the ledger. That's what they are there for, to use judgement in managing and reviewing posts and threads. From what I've seen, the Mods seem to know the difference between criticism and bashing. Broad MLS and Soccer discussions: Not in favor of this at all. This board will get swamped and diluted if it becomes a free-for-all of non-DCU stuff. I see this as a very bad idea and a threat to the quality of the DCU board. Questioning each other’s support of the team: Who cares? I don't. And I really don't care if the Mods live in Anacostia or Anchorage. The internet serves the purpose of bringing fans together and keeping everyone in touch no matter where they are.
EdTheRed is right. Posting a list of names isn't going to help anything. About editing thread titles - If a thread title gives very little indication about the actual topic of the thread I do tend to edit it. I've also changed titles to reflect changes of topic or important updates that occur mid-thread. I think those practices makes some sense. By the way, other than with the official match threads I don't think there are any "rules" on this board. There are some norms of etiquette and civility though. I don't think it's a big deal to ask about them and see if we shouldn't clarify some things.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to show. That moderators are lording it over us? What does knowing that a thread has been 'edited' by a moderator tell us? That someone forgot an [R]? Knowing something has been edited really doesn't tell me much. Now, as for the complaint that threads have been started about a moderator? What does that show other than that someone is upset he's had a few posts moved? And as for the final observation, that threads have been started by moderators, well, revelation has answered that complaint. But to pile on, as it were, if you look at a slightly broader picture of the board, your complaint loses further weight. Excluding the 3 sticky threads (which can only be stuck by mods), 6 out of the 30 threads on the board's front page have been started by mods. To me that doesn't seem like cause for alarm. And my guess is that the percentage of mod started posts will decline even further when the season finally starts. Just offering a different perspective on 'the numbers.'
In the first post you wrote: You are going to treat those DC United supporters whom you think are trolls differently than you treat people whom you don't think are trolls. I think it's much more likely that you will edit or move posts by these "trollers" than it would be for you edit or move posts by "non-trollers." The people you think are trolls have a right to know who they are. That way they can either behave in a way that is satisfactory to the way you want this board to be run or they can stop posting here. In the very least, they should have an opportunity to prove to you that they are not trolls. If you have a secret list, even in your mind, of those who are "trolls who support DC United," you are going to be prejudiced against anything and everything those people are likely to post. What about the "Community" thread? There is so much in there that has been split from other threads with no context whatsoever that the entire thing makes no sense. If the threads that aren't official match threads don't have rules (apart from the BS standards generic to the entire site), what would cause any posts in those threds to ever be moved or edited? If people don't know the official "norms" of etiquette and civility that you want to see, how will they know if they break them? Does moving a post to the community thread indictate that a poster has, as far as you're concerned, breached some norm of etiquette and civility? I'm asking. What are the norms of etiquette and civility you personally would like to see on this forum? And how are they different from "rules?"
Yes, that it should be lorded over by the fans, not moderators What does knowing that a thread has been 'edited' by a moderator tell us? Makes the thread lose context. How was it started? What kind of emotion/humor was expressed? What does it show about where the poster wanted the thread to go? Excluding the 3 sticky threads (which can only be stuck by mods), 6 out of the 30 threads on the board's front page have been started by mods Excluding the 3 sticky threads make for 27 threads, right? Of the 27 the thread starters: 5 by Knave, 1 by Lastort, 1 by JH6, 1 by revelation, 1 by ursula. Makes for 9, right? And my guess is that the percentage of mod started posts will decline even further when the season finally starts Yeah you're probably right about that. We'll see how much it goes down.
Wrong. Knave and revelation are the only two people on your list who moderate this forum. Makes for 6. Or are you suggesting that anyone who moderates anywhere on BigSoccer should not start threads here?