The Spanish Supporters last night

The three separate discussions have been merged into one thread.

Please stop the personal attacks.

Racism is indeed ubiquitous. The actions of the fans in the Bernabeu were saddening and shameful. However the righteous indignation of the English posters here really does need to to subside, as mud can justifiably be slung in every direction. Everybody here understands what happened was wrong, and that neither sensationalism nor lip service will affect this issue for the positive.

Please everybody cool the rhetoric.

 

He doesn´t need to put "all" after he says the Spanish situation. I don´t think that both of you know which is the real situation in Spain. You don´t need to attack a whole country when this country has a problem with racists. You and the press should not ATTACK it or INSULT it as a country including the majority of non-racist people, but help it and sugest a solution. However, narrow headed people don´t understand that I can have more things in common with a Chinese than with one of those monkeys of Ultra Sur, even if I feel more Spanish than any of the Ultras Sur. I am not saying: well monkey chants, it´s not that important, but some English are not helping to see what really happened. And if we cannot criticize the English part of it because it is only our problem, don´t tell us how to manage against our problem. If you are sure that racism was invented by Luis Aragonés, that monkey chants is a tradition in Spanish football, that black people are always abused in our football, that Spanish people are not used to black faces... we will never get to an agreement about this.

 

Re: Racism is not a competition

It is not the English press bringing the accusation against the Spanish national coach. Henry and the French national team are taking the matter up with Fifa.

 

Re: Racism is not a competition

Denial is a common defense mechanism that one uses, pretending that an uncomfortable thing did not happen. That's not the case. But when you pretend to ignore the rest of my post, it's a state of denial, probably because you are projecting on someone you don't even know your own incapacity of dealing with the sentence. This is pretty common.

To take a line out of context and make an issue out of it is wrong. It's called hypocrisy. Pretty common too.

Calm down.

 

Luis Aragonés did not invent racism, but he made a very offensive racist remark, which he has never apologized for. IF SGE made such a remark he would have been fired by the English FA pure and simple. The Spanish FA has done nothing to help ease the situation and the rest of the world is looking on horrorfied.

 

Re: Racism is not a competition

I know more about Spanish history than you can imagine. But hey, we are discussing a football related issue.

 

2 things:
1. What about the (self) righteous indignation of the Spanish fans? I believe that on these boards that attiude is a large part of the problem. The attiude seems to be "Yeah, it was bad, but look at what the English [Press/Fans] did. They're as bad, if not worse." The problem here is that, in this particular instance, the racism had NOTHING (from a protagonist POV) to do with England, its fans or press. And looking for reasons to ameliorate the situation by blaming others leads one to believe that responsibility is not been taken, nor is the disgust of what happened, outside of Spain, fully understood.

2. As I've said before, I'm not an English poster. I'm neither English, nor an English supporter or even a supporter of the English team.

 

Re: Racism is not a competition

You are delusional.

 

Re: Racism is not a competition

Delusions, afflictive emotions can lead one to become hostile, even cynical.

Surely you can do better than that.

 

I'm referring to these boards, there's only so much kicking people can take when they're down... i'm sure all the Spanish here feel ashamed of the idiots at the game, but having to read the fierce comments of Englishmen looking to shout out how wrong the Spaniards were, and in topics like 'Racist Spanish scum', wouldn't make them feel particularly comforted. It's turned into a case of non-racists fighting non-racists over a racism debate.

 

Said the guy who still maintains that a certain coach said something he never did.
Let's continue anyway......

You're fooling yourself if you have never seen worse than last wednesday, especially that time in Eastern Europe when it was louder and longer. Don't lie. It's bad for the karma. Plus one might expect that one would be more surprised if this happened in Holland, and it did, with an English team: no online bítching, want to guess if you lost or won that game?

Apparently you're giving my 'arse' some good competition with the (bull)shít that's coming out of you. I guess as long as it doesn't happen inside the stadium, it's all good in England. I would rather be chanted to in a football game, than have a group of coward nazi scum beating me up just outside the stadium because they need to kill time before or after the match. But maybe that's just me.

Oh they happened. You can still take responsiblity for those things even if you're not English, or are you now saying you don't have to condemn these things as long as the people doing it aren't from your country? Take your responsibility for these things you didn't do you coward!

That Asian kid is still waiting for his fruit basket by the way.

Actually only somebody big with the naive would think the English didn't have some part of this because of their press, not to mention how their players were acting on the field.

 

Fixed your post for you.

As stated in the Spanish newspaper EL PAIS on Friday: Its editorial deplores the lack of leadership and sensitivity of the Spanish FA and Spain coach Luis Aragones. It calls for Aragones to apologise immediately and stop trying to blame some kind of English press conspiracy.

 

People still do that? 'Fixing' somebody's post? That's so passé.

 

Er, what?

Care to share with us where on earth you got the information that National Front rallies are held 'everywhere'??!

The NF are a tiny, tiny minority group whose influence is minimal.

 

Re: Small minded wankers

This is possibly the weakest argument you have come up with yet.

Let me start by saying that England were utterly abysmal and made to look foolish by the Spanish, who played very well and thoroughly deserved their win.

Having said that, England friendlies simply do not matter.

At all.

Your suggestion that we are trying to draw attention away from the result by manufacturing some sort of outrage at racist abuse is both offensive and pathetic. Nobody cares that we lost, just as nobody would have been particularly bothered if we had won.

Your reference to the abuse our players recieved in Slovakia is also nonsense. A big deal was made out of that and the Slovakian FA were fined. However I can say with 100% certainty - because I was there - that the abuse in Bratislava was nothing compared to what occurred on Wednesday night.

Your continued attempts to imply that England are making a big fuss over nothing are equally insulting. We as fans along with our FA have a responsibility to those players who suffered such disgusting abuse to make as loud a protest about it as possible. How do you think Shaun Wright-Philips would feel if our FA simply shrugged their shoulders and looked the other way, or told him:

"We're not going to bother making a big deal out of this. Let's be honest, our fans have misbehaved in the past so we'll look a bit silly if we kick up a fuss now.

Sorry."

There is a genuine sense of anger about this in England which I really think you don't understand at all. I felt sick when I watched Shaun Wright-Philips being hammered like that - a terrific young player who was desperate to represent his country in one of the most famous stadiums in the world and he has to put up with that crap?? If you think we're being hypocritical then you can fuçk off, to be honest.

 

This would have made me laugh if it wasn't such a staggering display of ignorance and arrogance.

Remind me again in which country black people were regularly lynched? Where they weren't allowed to sit at the front of the bus or drink out of the same water fountains as white people? Jesus H Christ, there wasn't even a Civil Rights act until the 1960s in the USA. And yet England is 'the probably worse country in race relations'???! Do me a favour.

To our shame, yes. Irrelevant.

Beyond belief. What on earth are you rambling on about?

 

Wow, both at the same time? That's pretty good.

I saw both games on the tv, and it was exactly the same. The black players got heckled from start to end. ¿How was it 'nothing compared' to wednesday night? Please.

And I was talking about the fuss that is being made on this board compared to the other game, but then again I don't remember Blair making any comment when that happened either.

¿What is it with you English and assuming things are being written or said that never have been said or written?

Hey, aren't you also one of the people who still insist Aragones called Henry a black shít, right? I'm pretty sure that was you. Imagine that.

I do not 'think' you're hypocrites, I know it.

Hopefully I can still 'fuçk off' though, because then I wouldn't have to read your reply again because apparently you wouldn't care, it's not like there aren't enough English people in this thread already writing nonsense.

Like that will happen.

 

First of all, don't make any refrences to General Franco. As much as democracies and communism think he was bad, and the fact that he did ally with Hitler and Mussolini during the civil war, don't make him a bad leader. The bad press has made the world look down upon upon him, even though he was the one who Spain back into the world as a great country.

Second, during history, England has always found a way to screw us, Spain, over. Even if it wasn't anywhere near what they said, such as Francis Drake, who was said to be a hero, although he never did anything.

Third, while it is sad that our fans were making racist cheers at the black players on England, this is not an isolated incident in soccer. Had it not been for our coach Aragones, and the British, this would not be such a big deal. Maybe we should address all of soccer, not just certain games. Racism is just one of the problems in soccer. Don't forget how the Italians have been known to vomit on the opposing fans under them. And tell Tony Blair to worry about his political matters, rather than a soccer game.

And by the way, Spain did tool England. And, maybe the disgraceful acts of some players such as Cole and Rooney merited cheers, although not racist ones.

Arriba España

 

Because there was abuse in Bratislava but it wasn't as loud or as sustained as in Madrid. It's quite simple really, the booing and monkey noises were worse last Wednesday.

The Slovakian coach hadn't made inflammatory remarks prior to that game, nor was there the same head-in-the-sand reaction from the Slovakian FA that their Spanish counterparts have shown.

As for the reason for the absence of attention on this board towards the matter, it's fairly obvious that there aren't as many Slovakian posters on these boards as there are Spanish, and that the reaction of some Spanish posters is to make counter-accusations against the English instead of simply accepting that what went on was disgraceful, unacceptable and inexcusable.

Actually it wasn't me, although I am at a bit of a loss as to what he did say if he didn't call Henry a 'black s***'. That is, after all, what was widely reported. What do you think he said? Although really, that is fairly irrelevant to the issue of the chants at the stadium.

How? In what way am I displaying hypocrisy?

As far as I can see, the only possible context in which my posts on this subject could be hypocritical would be if I and all the other England fans who are angered by this had indulged in the same foul and sickening racist abuse at a football match. I haven't and I'm pretty sure most other England fans havent either.

And what do you think about the fact that we had a responsibility to protest on behalf of our black players?

No need to worry on that account.

 

You've probably had too many beers that night, because this is only true in never-ville.

The Slovakian coach wasn't harassed again by the English press for something that happened months ago, for something that while being offensive, wasn't racist at all. Even though some people can't get that in their minds, or don't want to.

As for head in the sand: LINK. I'm sure I don't have to translate that, because some of you apparently know Spanish so well, that they even understand the language 'better' than the Spanish people themselves.

I knew I was pretty sure it was you: pretty sureness link

And again, I do not 'think' he didn't say black shít, I know he didn't.

I'm also pretty sure I've already written about this earlier in this thread, but hey, my brain has to be wrong one of these times when I'm pretty sure about something, it hasn't happened yet, so chances are it might be in this case......

England vs Turkey, the game England had against Sweden where Larsson got heckled racially. Hell, I've even heard 'monkey sounds' at a Chelsea game last or 2 years ago. Then from the other side: the game against Slovakia, I also remember another game of England against an Eastern European country, PSV vs Arsenal.

None of those times have I seen the same outrage (mostly talking about) on this board, or (also to some extent) the 'outside world'.

If that isn't hypocrite....well it is, so need for the 'I don't know what is'.

Actually I am worrying I don't pay attention to people who can 'fuçk off' on my account. Conflicting behaviour being shown. Nothing new?

 

Well, I'm judging by my own experience in Bratislava and by the testimony of friends who were there and also in Madrid. You're judging by what you heard on TV.

It was worse in Madrid, but that's really not the point anyway is it?

That's because he didn't make a stupidly offensive statement on TV about one of the most famous players in the Premiership.

Not quite sure where you've conjured that particular notion from, I've never claimed to speak a word of Spanish. But well done to the Spanish FA for finally apologising.

Oh right, I thought you were referring to that thread where you personally argued with people about whether he had said it or not.

I'm just going by what has been universally reported in the press here but of course that may be wrong. I assume you've got conclusive proof of what he did say? A concrete source?

Either way, it's a complete side-issue really. Regardless of Aragones' comments, the monkey noises are inexcusable.

Ah I see, so you mean we're not being hypocritical at all.

As I said, if the Engand fans who chanted at Larsson were now getting on their high horses then that would be hypocrisy.

If I were to try and defend those English fans and act as an apologist for them by trying to constantly deflect the blame onto the Swedes then that would be hypocrisy.

Since that isn't the case, there is nothing hypocritical at all about me being angry at what happened on Wednesday.

Well it's not, so it's painfully evident you don't know what hypocrisy is.

Oh, stop worrying about that and concentate on how you can try to blame the English for your fans' 19th Century attitudes. You've not done very well so far I'm afraid.

 

Yeah, too bad I've been to enough games to realise in many cases you can hear things better on the tv, than actually being in the stadium. But hey, that would have worked like a charm on somebody who didn't, don't throw it away just yet.

He didn't make it on tv, he made them on the field. Don't tell me you believe they use the same language as on Happy Days on a football field. Hot dog! Regardless, the English press hounded him because they say he made racist statements, which he didn't.

That was directed to the English kid who first claimed Aragones said 'nígger', then changed it to 'black shít, then after it's been said multiple times that he didn't actually say that, still claims he did. He roams this thread, I'm sure you'll see him soon. He's an expert in the Spanish language.

I have seen the video, and more than just a few seconds that would take to say 2 words like 'black shít'. The reason some of you people still believe he said 'black shít' is the same reason some people earlier thought he said 'nígger': you have lousy translators doing the translating for you.

Actually, it is. Not making the same 'outrage' (on the board) when it has happened before, especially when the English were the ones doing it themselves, but doing it now (in the only game out of those, that was lost by the by) that is hypocrisy.

I looked in the dictionary to be sure, and lo and behold I see a group picture of the English posters from this thread. It seems you should do a check on the definition yourself apparently.

Wow, once again: "¿What is it with you English and assuming things are being written or said that never have been said or written?" It's like an epidemic.

¿Can you point out where I solely blamed the English for what happened? Oops?
It's like the "fuçk off" all over again: obviously not true.

Just as a sidenote: you can count the number of Spanish posters who said it was a o k what happened wednesday on one hand, or on whatever body part you want for that matter, because that number is zero. (unless I missed a newly created sockpuppet for the occassion) Some of us are mearly stating the obvious, that the English are nobody to take the moral high ground on this issue. Because the same things and worse happen in your camp. Apparently none of you can take that, because that is the only reason why you are still writing in this thread....because as already pointed out: zero Spanish posters are saying it was ok. Food for thought.

Not too much though, or you might hurt your heads, or worse, stop writing in this thread and not amuse me anymore with your 'points' .

 

In all fairness when the threads on the game first appeared on these boards most Spaniards seemed to come off defending what went on, but I think this occured because the English and most other posters came on here attacking all Spaniards and calling all of Spain racists. as things cooled down a little, It became less and less a case of all of us attacking each other. The Spaniards who make sense posted against what happened, sadly on both sides we have many people still posting stupidities. One thing is to have them in the World Rivalries forum, another is to have them all over the boards.

 

Let me see if I have this correct.

Too many Spanish fans were monkey-grunting on Wednesday night and at the U21 game.

But I'm a coward for pointing this out?

And I need to take responsibility and apologise for a series of random events that happened in England, half-remembered by you?

As I keep saying, I'm not English; and the point here is not whether or not the English are worse or hypocritical or anything. England, its fans, team and press, did nothing wrong last Tuesday and Wednesday. It was Spanish fans who were monkey-grunting. In and of itself, this does not need context. This was wrong. Period, case closed, goodbye.

The problem, it appears to me is that there are Spanish fans who are desperately seeking anyone but themselves to blame for the naked racism of the Spanish fans.

But pointing this out makes me a coward, right? And you're a morally righteous person? (If only those bloody blacks could ever know their place, right?)

But what do I know? I'm a coward, right?

 

¿Why aren't you taking responsibility for the actions of others? ¿Don't you feel responsible for what other people you don't even know do? That's so weird.

Oh wait, maybe because it was a bullshít idea to begin with. Yes, I think that's it.
Next time if you don't want others to ask you to do unlogical things, don't start by doing it yourself.

Well, it's all good if I constantly claim that you are a racist then. Or hit and kick you. Cool.

Apparently nothing if you are insinuating that I am only blaming the English for what happened. To recycle: "¿Can you point out where I solely blamed the English for what happened? Oops?" You coward.