The Spanish Supporters last night

Re: Small minded wankers

This is the year 2004 and it's a sad day that we are even discussing this.

 

Re: Small minded wankers

Or maybe it had more to do with the fact that we understood racism was prevalent in Eastern Europe and partly expected it. Alternately it could have something to do with the fact that even the Eastern Europeans chants were nowhere near as bad as that experienced last night from a "civilised" society of people.

You choose

Hmm - as you so correctly point out the first post made it clear the racist aspect was in relation to football (hence the term "supporters" - or did you miss that bit?).

Care to try again and actually answer the point about how the Spanish posters were relating the aspect of racism to society as a whole as opposed to the restricted aspect of the first post?

You're not very good at this are you?

Care to point out some hypocrisy I have written before you take that back as the obvious lie it is?

It's sad when you have to lie to try and stop sounding pathetic and appear to have a clue. Maybe you should give up before you get shown up even further.....

So how exactly do you explain the vast column inches taken up in the English press discussing this topic any time it happens then? But of course it can't be true - you saw it on TV whereas I only read the papers here every day so you must be right....

Hey - as long as you acknowledge that you are, in fact, a bald cvnt then I guess you're right and it's no longer an insult. As long as you have a fair opinion of how you appear on here that's the main thing. Why not change your moniker to reflect this as you appear to be proud of your status?

Yes I can read just fine - you apparently can't as you continue to refuse to acknowledge the racism in your own country.

As to ignorance being bliss - I'll have to take your word for it as you are doing a fine job of proving your expertise in this matter

Keep trying though - you may actually come up with a valid point if you keep posting for another few years.....

 

Re: Small minded wankers

I choose 'it's because you lost'.

It's true, I'm not very good at being wrong I should try, to give you chance.
You're a bunch of hypocrites, get over it.

The selective outrage of Spanish racism when it's just as present in England. I don't see you making threads about the black people being beaten outside the stadiums in England. ¿Lie? Please.

Well, ignoring the fact I would rather believe somebody trustworthy instead of some moron on a messageboard: The London media have ignored trouble at Spurs matches this season and chose to ignore the trouble at the Britannia Stadium.

Maybe that English person doesn't read the papers over there either.

I think I've actually seen the documentary they're discussing on that page (whoa, I can see the BBC over here? Blimey) pretty sure they mentioned the English press ignoring the hooligan actions to stop 'promoting' it, as well in that one.

Thanx for not stopping trying to justify it. Priceless.

Apparently you can't read just fine, because this is the third time I'm responding that it would be hypocrite of me to start thread after thread about the English racists (i.e. acknowledging it, i.e. spelling it out, again)

But hey, it's not the first time you're wrong. You're pretty consistant in that aspect.

 

Well said mate, it just gets shocking, when hard working spaniards are tarred with the same brush as those racist wankers.

 

They're Worse is never an acceptable excuse. Pity you don't know how to step up and take some responsibility.

 

Let's not also tar all Madridistas or Real Madrid fans as racists because of the Ultra Sur. I remember sitting high up on the "Lateral" stands once just in front of the "Viking Ultras" and being very worried as the only coloured person around. But I received ZERO abuse, instead people including the Viking Ultras were very friendly and curious about the Real Madrid supporter from India. I felt that while they were clearly not as PC as Scandinavia (I lived in Stockholm) there was no harm intended.

That said, there is no excuse for the people who did behave the way they did, and there is no excuse for Perez and his gang not cracking down on the bigoted minority that prevent the club from leaving behind the baggage of the Franco years. Having one, even one, coloured player on the Madrid squad would be a start. It's time that the club reflected Madrid society, as one of the friendlist, most cosmopolitan places to visit in all of Europe... a city where I felt more welcome than any save possibly Vilnus and Dublin.

 

To be honest Bergamister you are completely missing the point. Your behaviour and attempt to pour fuel on the fire betrays your own lack of sensitivity to the problem.
This was a massive, public outbreak of racism which was ignored (on the whole) by the Spanish authorities and fanned to a great degree by the prior behaviour of Aragones.
The issue here is not about past discretions by English supporters (no doubt they continue to this day), but about the events of last night. Your position is untenable. How far shall we go back? Let's talk about British Imperial History - fair do; let's then talk about Spanish conquistadors - how about them Romans eh? At what point in History shall we stop? At what point should we stop abusing history, but instead learn from it? This is 2004, and last night the capital city of Spain embarassed itself. Tell me: should Madrid benefit from this mature expression of Spanish tolerance by securing the 2012 Olympic nomination?
You say you are Italian, but yet you are based in both Bergamo and Brussels. A citizen of Europe then? Do you want your kids to grow up in a Europe filled with such bigoted hatred? If not, perhaps then you should think before you write and consider the facts: that was an overwhelming expression of hate and prejudice that has no place in European society. Drawing comparisons, such as those drawn by yourself, Oscar (a Spaniard living in Holland), and dmar fail the racism test. Let me say it clearly: whatever happened last night was an abomination, and it should be addressed immediately. If it had occurred in England then I would have similarly been ashamed. I would not be posting blase comments about how I should sort out my own home first. It needs sorting out, but clearly in Spain it requires urgent surgery.
Get a grip!

 

having said all that, England were pretty crap last night though weren't they!? I mean I cant remember one meaningful attack.

 

Re: Small minded wankers

Hey guys - how about some maturity here? You know I love football, and I admire teams that play it the way it should be played. Certainly Spain gave England a real hiding yesterday - good for them, they showed themselves to be better footballers but yet their supporters showed themselves to be poor citizens of the world.
Oscar and Minuscapita (that does make me chuckle - you really need some Pluscapita boosters), where are you going with this lads? Take some time, reflect, ask yourself, which feels better - beating England 1-0 in a friendly, or maybe watching your compatriots in the stands make fools of themselves and injure the great democracy and proud tradition of your nation?
If the 1-0 still makes you feel good then I suggest you both think a little further about the magnitude of yesterday's events.
Also Minus-matey - I am so pleased to hear that you live in Redwood City. California is such a great place of opportunity, isn't it? It is such a humbling experience to widen one's horizons beyond the home country. It gives one such a great sense of harmony, and personal enrichment to live and understand how other people live. I am sure you will agree.

 

you're dead right, but to be honest I don't really care. Up the Gunners!

 

Oh but is, especially when 'they' try take the moral highground in a situation like this.

I'm sorry I'm not taking any responsibility for something other people did, hundreds and hundreds of kilometers away from where I am. I'll be sure to do just that, when you apologise for all the bad things that happen in England/because of England, and take your responsiblity. Wasn't there a woman raped by English football fans, or even a player not so long ago, you can start by sending her a letter of apology and take your responsibility for that. Or if that 'never happened', why not send that Asian kid that was beat up by a group of thugs a fruit basket.

Or more likely, I still wouldn't.

 

Re: Small minded wankers

The 1-0, while not making me feel bad, doesn't exactly excite me. It's just a friendly.

The fact that you see an increase of what seems a 1000% in online crying about the Spanish 'abuse' as opposed to the abuse the (English) players have received in other places, only makes me feel that the English are the ones that are giving this result more importance. Like I already said, there wasn't this much outrage when England didn't lose the game.

 

Re: Small minded wankers

You don't seem able to understand that the outrage is due to the fact that the racism experienced on Wednesday night was worse than anything England has seen in the other places you refer to. Combine this with the shock myself and apparently others have felt that this could happen in a country like Spain and you might find a more realistic reason why there has been the preponderence of posts and threads about this issue.

The longer you continue to try and write this outrage off as being due to the fact we lost the more you appear to represent the views of your national football federation and government. This is the issue that is pissing people off the most - the apparent inability of these powers to even accept there is a problem.

Do you really think the English care that much about losing a meaningless friendly? Most of us, if honest, would have expected a draw at best considering the talent in the Spanish squad and that the game was in Spain. England are notoriously crap in friendlies - our players do not seem able to motivate themselves for friendlies in the same way they do for competitive games.

The longer you continue to write this issue off in this regard the more you will appear to condone the racism seen at the game. And that is the saddest thing of all.....

 

Re: Small minded wankers

Oh dear oh dear. So you think the racism in football in England is just as bad as it is in Spain. Does it hurt when you talk out your arse like that??

Of course we still have a problem, just like we still have a problem with violence in football. Trouble is we can say we are doing something about it and it is not as prevalant as in the rest of europe.

You see, racist chanting occured in a big match. The chanting was caught on tape and it has been the loudest the majority of us English fans have ever heard. What did the Spanish press and FA do...Ignore it. What does that tell you about all the other racist stuff that goes on around the country, in and out of sports?? Its ignored.

You see, I have said this before, England are doing the most in the world to kick racism out of football. thats why we can actualy say something on the subject.

Got that off my chest.......so, what was it you wanted me to lie about?? The spanish DON`T have a problem??

 

Racism is not a competition

I want to express my protest for the racist taunts and also for the so partial and unjust treatment that is being held by British mass media of what happened last Wednesday in Madrid. Those incidents are despicable from any point of view, comprise of that part of the soccer and life that must ashame to any human being with a small mind. In Spain it is unsual and I cannot remember that it has ever happened in an event with as much diffusion. However I do remember numerous incidents of that kind in England, not only against sportsmen of black race but lately against Turkish sportsmen and supporters. Racism is not only in sports and it is not only in Spain. England cannot be sure to be 100% free of racism, like no other country is. It also seems to me despicable and a sign of xenophobia on the part of the English public opinion that they blame all the Spanish supporters and country of being racist. Perhaps it all began with this stupid old coach, but I am reading so many lies and stupid stuff on English media that I am amazing.
First lie: "England lost to football match last night but Spain shamefully lost something dwells important -- Spain lost to their right to be considered to civilised football nation, " the Daily Telegraph said.
Spain has not lost like nation with those incidents, that quickly have been rejected by all the authorities and the public opinion here. The expression "lost" seems to want to make of this controversy of racism a competition. Somebody has said that to discredit the candidacy of the Olympic Games of Madrid 2012 as opposed to the one of London.
Second lie: "Sanctions should include stopping all Spanish participation in European football until Spain you eat up with an action plan, " Piara Power, director of "Let's Kick Racism out of Football", told Reuters.
A plan of action to eradicate racism in Spain is necessary just as it is in England and all Europe. Mainly in the countries that count on political parties of racists patterns with parliamentary representation. (Spain, luckily, does not have any party of this type, what does happen in many countries of western Europe.) It amazes me to say that there have to stop the participation of Spain in Europe when these incidents have taken place in a friendly match in which the British press has attracted all the racists from Madrid to the stadium.
Third lie: "The national Spanish side there are not black players but Brazilians Ronaldo and Robert Real Carlos AT Madrid, ace well ace Ronaldinho of Barcelona, to encounter few problems in the Liga", said Piara Power.
The Spanish team has had players of black race and they never had racism problems that are known. Donato, Vicente Engonga or Catanha have been the most recent ones. In Spanish Liga most of the teams have several players of black race, many foreigners and some Spaniards. They could have had some problems with racist people, but as important as the problems that players bear for being from Madrid, Catalonia or Galicia when they play with their competitor teams. In fact, English press at the moment has not been much interested in knowing if racism exists in everyday life. For them, the aim is selling newspapers and destroying the prestige of Spain.
In conclusion, racism is not a competition nor a game but that is a problem of all, Spanish, English and foreigners, and I do not believe that England, as a country, can give lessons about morality to other countries. Please, stop making a sensationalist use of a so serious problem as racism, it seems that instead of fighting against racism you are attracting the racists and the groups of extreme right to fill the football stadiums. Let FIFA investigate the incidents, and not tabloids.

 

Moral cowardice - it's what's known as running, hiding and sticking your head in the sand. If you're Spanish, just remember, these fans were supporting the Spanish national team, supporting your country. They were in many respects speaking for Spain inasmuch as the national team is representative of Spain.

Interesting. I'm not English; you are, I presume Spanish?

If those things that you say happened, happened, then they should be condemned aslo. But as I said before They're Worse is never acceptable - all it does is allows you not to take responsibility.

 

That’s what they don’t want to understand Oscar!!
We all said that we do not support these kinds of acts but we also found it ironic that these complaints are coming from the probably worse country in race relations, and to add poop to the toilet they have hooliganizem, rape and much more.
Yes, we have racists in Spain, yes, we need to do something about it.



Plus to be fair I did watch the game yesterday and I did hear the monkey noises and it actually sounds much worse than I thought, not the volume of it, you just have to hear it your self to get the full affect.
I am really sorry that the Black English players had to endure this, I personally give them credit for showing extreme pride in this situation, , they were the winners of the game.
If I was the prime minister of Spain I would personally call them and apologies to them, they were the bravest of all on that field, god bless them.

 

Re: Racism is not a competition

Fair enough, but when Heysel happened ALL English clubs were kicked out of Europe, not just Liverpool. That was UEFA's way of saying No Distinctions. The same holds true when the usual small minority of English fans indulge in hooliganism. All are tarred with the same brush. And so it goes for Spain. The 'small minority' excuse is not allowed for England, but should be for Spain?

Do yourself and your argument a favour and spare us these conspiracy theories. The crowd shouted "F**cking Ni**ggers" and other choice words and phrases (and also at the U21 game). That has nothing tho do with 2012. To imply conspiracy or otherwise is to ignore "F**cking Ni**ggers" and the seriousness that underlies it.

Not a lie, just a suggestion, harsh, I'll admit, but where do you suggest that we start? Someone or some team or country is one day going to be hit with very harsh, perhaps overly harsh sanctions. It may not be Spain this time, but it might be.

True.

HHmmm, what exactly are you trying to say? That if a country has racist political parties, then the country is racist? And that because Spain has no racist political parties, it's not racist? Spurious logic there......

ALL? I think you'll find that there were many at the U21 game not at the Madrid game who were shouting "F**cking Ni**ggers." Does that mean that there are racists in other parts of the country also? And the idea that the British press attracted all these heretofore hidden racists to the stadium? A few questions on that theory:
1. How come the British press has so much influence in Spain? Do Spanish people have to rely upon the British press to be told what to do or not to do?
2. The only way for Spanish people to show their annoyance at the British press was to shout "F**cking Ni**ggers," and other racist chants? That must make the Spanish people some of the most unimaginative in the world.
3. The implication is that the British press overstated and took out of context what Aragones said about Henry. Henry is French, not English. And despite what Aragones and his fellow crypto-fascists/racists might want to believe, what he said was racist and insulting.

By and large I agree, BUT there's a huge difference between shouting insults at a Barca player because he's playing from Barca and calling someone a "F**cking Ni**gger" because he's black.

And you know this from an extensive study of the English press, right? True, they want to sell newspapers, but why would they want to destroy the prestige of Spain? Another conspiracy? I doubt there's a single British journalist ever even thought about the prestige of Spain. The prestige of Spain? Well it sounds very self important to be honest and to tell the truth, after Tuesday and Wednesday night's games where the the prestige of Spain was on show in full view in the stands, I would suggest you wait a while before drawing more attention to the prestige of Spain

True

Who would you suggest give those lessons? Those wonderfully enlightened Spanish fans?

This is the usual complaint about the press - They were never there until the press wrote about them. Bullsh**t. The logic is therefore that the racists are there, and by exposing them, it makes them worse? Strange logic again. The tabloids didn't creat the racists, but they have a right, nay, even an obligation to expose them. Without the coverage, FIFA would do very little. This puts pressure on FIFA to act. And if Spain has to play its next game or games behind closed doors with a concurrent large fine, then maybe that's a start. For too long, racism everywhere, not just in Spain, has been evident and rarely is there anything other than lip service paid to this insidious problem. Somewhere, sometime some club/country will pay the price. And a (overly?) harsh price might be the only way to make people sit up and pay attention.

 

Oscar and Minuscapita - you're both still dragging your knuckles through the sand, and you make yourselves look no better than the English hooligans you are quick to portray as guilty for their past and current misdeeds. You tar a nation with the same brush suggesting that all English are hooligans or rapists and therefore are not worthy of serious dialogue. I would counter that some (a minority, but a substantial minority) of people attending the game were guilty of racist obscenities. Do we extrapolate and suggest that this represents the nation of Spain like you both do? No, I suggest that Spain takes a moment, looks hard at itself and maybe shows some humility and grace without suggesting that the English stirred it up. You both could do well to reflect on the same issue. Stop peddling your irrational hatred here too - for that is what it is. And I think you both know it.

 

Nobody is "peddling irrational hatred here” you and the "hooligans" that keep coming to our board need to get a life.
We "know" and acknowledge that we have a problem so drop it and move on.
I really don’t understand why the moderators are not locking all these repetitive threads!? We should only have one where everybody could discuss it at.

We all need to learn to get along and racism is wrong, now move on.

 

Re: Racism is not a competition

Your whole argument falls on its face when you accuse us of using the N word, we don’t even have the word N!gger in Spanish!!
Even when we try to talk and fix the problem you somehow find a way to argue about it.

Unfreakingbelievable!!

 

Re: Racism is not a competition

Don't suppose you understand or even know what a metaphor is?

If you do, then you're willfully misconstruing; if you don't, then you have precious little idea of how incredibly stupid your post is.

 

Re: Racism is not a competition

First let me say that I've never heard of racism in Spain.

The Moorish domain for so many centuries would make racism in Spain a contradiction. After all, the ethnic origins are evident when one looks to the Spanish population. It is impressive that supporters feel at ease to express racism in a national team's game - and the English hypocrisy cannot be used as a excuse to decrease the importance of the fact.

But I'm sure that Spain, being a tolerant culture, will turn this terrible event into a landmark in the fight against racism in European football.

 

Re: Racism is not a competition

Settles the whole argument. You've never heard of it, therefore not only does it not exist, but it never did. Settles the whole argument..............wow............

 

Re: Racism is not a competition

Calm down. I will not judge an entire country based on a single and not previously seen fact. It's not fair. Please read my post again.