If LeBron James was a soccer,basketball,rugby player in Europe,South America,Australia,etc. right now he could be playing professionally for a team if he was good enough to make the first team. No one would be upset or think it was unusual. Since he's American he has to wait till he's completeled high school to play professionally. My question is why are the US's rules on this subject so different from the west of the world. Is it because high school and college sports outside America aren't a big deal. Is it because America values education more highly than the rest of the world does. Is it a cultural thing. It seems to be no big thing that a soccer or basketball player outside America can play professionally at 16 or 17 yrs old yet in America people get upset when a player skips or leaves college early to go pro.
For some reason, American sports have grown up with the educational system. The first football games were collegiate. Every high school has football, basketball, etc. teams. The rest of the world has developed their athletics on the club basis ( like 1860 Munchen- which started as an athletic club and picked up soccer as a sport some time later). The professional issue has been no problem outside America, but interferes with the educational responsibilities of the schools (college and high school).
Exactly what I meant to say, except a lot clearer than I could've explained it. Of course, remember that American athletes in non-team sports have athletes go pro at a young age. Ty Tryon, the Willimas sisters and Tara Lipinski all turned pro before they graduated high school. I guess with individual sports, there's none of the tradition associated with high school or college teams, or schools simply don't offer the sports. But there may also be a racial/classist element to the debate. Perhaps subconsciously, there's a feeling that when a golfer (read: white, middle/upper class) goes pro early, it's a wise career decision but when a basketball player (read: poor, black), it's based on greed and disregard for education. I don't know if this is true, but there does seem to be a gap in how team sports athletes and individual sports athletes are seen.
I think you're right. There are a number of teen NHL players like Dan Blackburn who was 18 when he played his first game and Illya Kovalchuk from Russia to just name two. Yet when KG, Kobe, Darius Miles, and now LeBron James first wanted to come straight out of high school, some people make an issue out of it. If they're eligible, let them play. I think college would be good though because it would help polish up their game. Obviously it worked out ok for those other guys, but who knows. It's like going to Juniors in hockey instead of going straight to the NHL. I think playing college ball would only help, plus they might even learn something. So why a basketball player is criticized and everyone praises a hockey player for making it to the highest level is beyond me.
Probably because the high school hockey and baseball players in question aren't: * rolling around town in $100K humvees bought by their mothers on credit against potential future earnings * stupid enough to have a picture taken of them getting free stuff * getting taken from town to town across the country like some sideshow exhibit * being raised by scandalous idiots who do things like trade in LeBron's used basketball sneakers for bingo chips * on the cover of SI and ESPNtheRag If he'd have kept a little lower profile, and/or the adults responsible for him had instructed him that laying low is wise, we wouldn't be talking about this right now. PS--just heard on the radio that prince LeBron has withdrawn his appeal of the Ohio ruling the other day that his team had to forfeit and that he was ineligible. Gee, I wonder what else was going to be exposed about him that made him withdraw the appeal? ******** Off subject a little, but did anyone hear John Feinstein on Jim Rome today? He had a really good point about there being way too much media emphasis on high school sports, which leads to this kind of crap.
Agreed, but the problem is, the adults around him either stand to profit from him (i.e. Sonny Vaccoro of adidas, who readily admits as much) or adult in age only (his mother). Considering the circumstances, Lebron himself seems to be a relatively well adjusted kid. Who's Jim Rome? You know, not to say that one system is better than the other, but if there was a European style club structure in the US, we wouldn't have this controversy over amateurism in scholastic sports or the slimy underworld of travelling AAU teams. Lebron would be just another talented athlete working to make it big time while working towards his diploma. Last year, one columnist half seriously suggested that Lebron should skip his final year of high school, sign with a European club and get his degree at an american school there. I liked the idea. He gets professional training, gets immersed in a different culture and makes money. How's that for a senior year?
Interesting thread. I've always been fascinated by the whole US high school/college sports thing, as we don't have anything like it. The idea of your sporting life peaking at 20, or even 17 and never playing the sport in an organised fashion again is a bit different. The only school sport that anyone follows here is that played by the really expensive private schools - mainly rugby - and then its only ex-students who care. In country towns, suburbs etc it is the semi-pro or amateur club teams that people play for and follow as a source of local pride, and then of course they follow the professional national league teams. The Aussie Rules league, the AFL, is actually moving the other way on the age thing. Kids must now be 18 to get drafted and play in the firsts team, and there is talk of pushing ithe age higher. Most of our good soccer players go overseas at 15/16, which is why the local National Soccer Lague is rubbish.
In my opinion the race/class argument really doesn't hold up well to scrutiny. You're leaving out the thing that really separates college basketball and football from all other college sports -- money. Why should anyone care who's on their tennis team or golf team? If one of them wants to quit and go pro good for them. College basketball and football are cash cows and need to be preserved in their current form. Besides, no cares if black athletes outside of basketball and football turn pro. And no one cares any less about white football or basketball players going pro. You should've been in Kentucky when (white) Rex Chapman decided to enter the NBA draft after his sophomore year back in the mid 80's. It was considered something of an moral and ethical disaster. Actually the whole idea that blacks are treated differently because the powers that be think they should get an education is kind of funny. Also, many of the commentators who address this issue have a very limited range of knowledge and aren't about to make the logical comparissons. Jay Bilas on ESPN News said that no 18 year old with the possible exception of Tiger Woods had ever received the level of attention James has. That shows you just how many sports he follows. I guess he missed Martina Hingis winning those grand slams at 16 and gaining global not merely national fame and fortune. And I think it's a safe bet he's never heard of Wayne Rooney. So remember comments on the James issue often come from people with a very narrow definition of the world of sports.
When the NHL draft first started, you had to be 21 to enter it. The age was lowered when the WHA began a practice of siging "underage" players (Gretzky was only 17 when he signed in the WHA). There are those that show promise in the NHL from day one. The biggest problem is that many of them don't fully mature or they fail completly. People consider the European way of running things as being superior. Yet, players in Europe are stunted by a lack of creativity in the club system. A lot of the players are packing up and moving to Canadian junior teams.
The reason America holds High School so importantly is that its the grass roots for a community. There is a lot of pride that goes into a communities local school district. Just take a look at the movie Varsity Blues. While it seems far-fetched that a town can be so crazed about a highschool sport, its actually much closer to reality than most people think. High School atheletes DO get free stuff and discount for bringing pride to their local community. Highschool football games in Pa can draw 10,000+ fans. College is a beast that has a life of its own in America. Its almost turning into a right of passage. Its not about an education anymore, its about the entire experience of being away from home the first time and all that stuff. When an athelete wants to skip college entirely, people can't understand WHY they would ever want to miss out on that experience. They went, their parents went, and their kids will go. So in conclusion, I would say it is a cultural thing to us Americans
I wonder if we'll ever see top American high school athletes go for the third option - play in Europe. I know I would. But then I went to Europe to clean up after drunks in Covent Garden. The idea of getting a job playing basketball in Europe for a couple of years sounds great to me.
In Germany, no one can play soccer professionally until they've reached the age of 18. In fact, I believe that is true in any sport with the possible exception of tennis. How old was Boris Becker when he won Wimbledon?
Re: Re: The rules of American pro sports vs. the rest of the world Boris was 17. If you want to know how fanatic people can get about High School sports read "Friday Night Lights" or see the movie/documentary, "Go Tigers".
Re: Re: Re: The rules of American pro sports vs. the rest of the world I thought he was 17 too. I was living in Germany when he won. So that was what, '85? I don't recall the year. And thinking back on it, I don't think he was allowed to play in any pro tournaments in Germany, which made his win at Wimbeldon all the more impressive. I don't know why I bother to reply to any of SportBoy321's threads. All he wants to do is bash any and all American sports and/or rules of those sports. If LeBron James grew up in Germany, he could not become a pro basketball player until he turned 18. The only reason Landon Donovan was not on the full team for Bayer Leverkusen when he went over there was because he was under 18. But I'm sure that facts like these would cloud SportBoy321's "argument."
Re: Re: Re: Re: The rules of American pro sports vs. the rest of the world I don't think I've bashed American sports in this thread. I actually prefer the American rules over the international rules. I don't think players should play on the 1st team until their 18. I think its comical that you can have a 16 yr old playing at the highest level in one of the best soccer leagues in the world. The public looks at that and says if a 16 yr old can play at that level than the sport must not be very difficult to play or require a lot of skill. My opinion you should have to wait till your 18 like Germany
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The rules of American pro sports vs. the rest of the world One thing worth chipping in - there's no such thing as a sporting scholarship in pretty much most of Europe, possibly the rest of the world. As there's no fan interest, and therefore no money in college sports there'd be no point offering financial inducements to make players go to college. Also, you tend to need good grades to get into university (call me cynical if you will, but I find it hard to believe that every single college sports star is an acedemically gifted individual). Also it is possible in Europe to leave school at 16 with qualifications that will get you a reasonable job, so while 16 may seem very young in the US, many of that age in Europe are already working. In Wayne Rooney's case, playing in the EPL at 16, people just thought he must be very talented to be playing at that age, not that the standard was poor. The saying goes "if you're good enough, then you're old enough".
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The rules of American pro sports vs. the rest of the world On the contrary. As Richard said. Such is the wide spread knowledge and appreciation of the game on these shores and around much of the world, that anyone worth their salt can realise a certain amount of talent is being shown. Rather than focussing on his age as proof of inability, most people focus on his achievements as proof of ability. The 'public' you percieve, is one that has little to no knowledge of the sport - and as such, isn't a particular problem in this country at least.
Re: Re: Re: The rules of American pro sports vs. the rest of the world So do HS games in Texas and the south, and even sometimes in California and Hawai'i. But I was speaking about media coverage, and I don't mean "hometown paper" coverage. There's all this crap in USAToday with mythical rankings and pumping up certain players into "stars" when really they should be HS kids. No kid should be a national media celebrity for playing a game. Frankly, I hope after all this that LeBron flames out big-time, like David Clyde (who I believe was only 15) did on the Texas Rangers back in the 70s. Lots and lots of hype, next big thing and all that, and nothing but injuries and fizzle. Friday Night Lights is one of the best books I've read, and one of the few I've re-read. I played HS football in a competitive San Diego league in the early 80s, but whoa...the emphasis on football was way less than out there at Odessa Permian even though the schools were about the same size. This book was WAY better than ESPN's Outside the Lines/The Season specials about those schools in Pennsylvania (Penn and Central Bucks West), where the coaches' priorities were also way out of whack.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The rules of American pro sports vs. the rest of the world You're such a... meanie. I hate all the attention this kid's getting, but I wish him well. All things considered, he could've turned out to be a whole lot worse.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The rules of American pro sports vs. the rest of the world Tell that to those much-younger-than-LeBron Olympic gymnasts on the Wheaties box. It could just as easily be said that any high school kid who does become a national media celeb can figure out that he's still just playing a game. Rather than suggesting the much less doable idea of having the media/public change its focus (re mythcal rankings: wanting to know how one's state title contender might match up against title contenders from other states is perfectly in line -like it or not- with the spirit of competition, especially in an ever-shrinking world. People do want to know), just keep in mind that the publicity is for a sport. To try and tell the teams/fans/public "OK, this is the limit of competition(re your statement about rankings) or coverage for your age group" when the interest is there, and when there is national competition in everything from spelling bees to college board exams to cheerleading to oratorical contests to science fairs to debate teams to chess matches doesn't make sense. You're not giving sports their due, and the fact that it already gets a great deal of publicity doesn't change that fact. LeBron's famous because he ain't your average HS player. If his talent was in computers, he'd already have a job, and the blessings of most everyone on this site. For a hummer and some jerseys? That's mean. Let the kid succeed in the NBA, I say.
Yeah, it seems strange to us here that 40 year old men can get enthused about teams of 17 year olds playing sports (as distinct from a couple of kids playing in a pro or semi-pro team) rather than following a local senior team
Having grown up around it, it strikes me as extremely sad. Never more so than last year, when I heard two guys in their 60s discussing a female high school basketball player, and lamenting that her hips were broadening. That was really going to slow her down. She was probably going to never be any better than she was as a sophomore. I mean, high school sports are a central focus of the community in many small towns, but that isn't necessarily a good thing.
it's not necessarily a bad thing either. What you described is an extreme. Generally speaking, the extent of it is that parents and community families feel a lot of pride and togetherness when the kids they live with and have bbq's and block parties with go out there and do well, or just simply go out there and have fun. With semi-professional and professional teams they don't have as much connection with the players. I mean I think of my own town and football team, and I don't think there too many famalies NOT connected with the football program and the players in some way or another. Either through their kids, their neighbors, PTA meetings, what have you.
A difference may be that many of these 40 year old men personally know the kids in their communities who are playing sports, while hardly anyone knows the players from the pro teams (around here).
What an interesting thread. My point is that if you are talented enough to play at 16 why should you be deprived are though you were aloud to drop out of school at 16 in america. But this would be considerd morally wrong. Like Lebron will become an acdemic. And its not so much people finsishing school at 16 here its more getting rid of the people who won't be using an education. You do have to apply to continue your education post 16. But I think its good how a small town can get behind a high school team if they have no other team then what wrong with that.