Benito is one of the best soccer minds on this board. The rest of you should pitch in and buy him a membership. As for the point about when should the US have taken Falluja, the final solution is that some sort of Iraqi force has to hold the city. In the spring we tried an 'Afghani solution', that is put the local tribal leaders in charge. It worked VERY well in Afghanistan. Not so much in Falluja. My guess is that the Afghani leaders are good at enforcing their law on their tribe but that role was taken over by Saddam in Iraq. A general idea of order apparently atrophied in Iraq. The experiment to let the local leaders try to keep control was a valid experiment. It didn't work. Now we have to try another experiment. The US is going to go house to house. We can win that one although it will be bloody. It will be hard to keep the win becasue US forces have to leave and the Iraqis (some set of Iraqis) have to be left in charge. We don't know if that will work. If it doesn't work, other countries will probably pitch in like Egypt and Saudi. But again, they will have to leave sometime too. Eventually some group of Iraqis has to keep control of Falluja.
Se quando c'era lui i treni arrivavano in orario bastava che facesse il capostazione... Massimo Troisi
Super, I haven't come across his posts on soccer. They may be good ones and I'll keep my eyes open for them. As far as I'm concerned what happens in PCE stays here. In here he posts like a maniac, no one on these boards should allow what goes on in here to affect how they interact with other posters. None of us would ever, ever get along! I'm not sure we meant to adopt the same strategy in regards to Falluja. I think we tried going in there, got our butts kicked, retreated to re-evaluate the situation. Too many civies, too many unknowns as far as insurgency strength, arms, etc. etc., coupled with a dip in the polls at the news of nearly 200 dead soldiers on our side ended the first assault on Falluja. Turning the city over to local authority, and I use that term rather loosely, was a tactic resorted to, not a tactic planned. I think I still feel we should have done something about Falluja a long time ago. This war has dragged on and on, despite Bush declaring it to be over so famously. Leaving hotbeds like Falluja to simmer and arguably grow in strength and danger seems like folly. But now at least it seems the stage is set to really do something about it. I agree that door to door is almost going to be a certainty. Every gun, box of ammo, rocket launcher, every eyeblink of resistance, every insurgent, every thing possible that stands between the Iraqi people and a legitimate election needs to be taken out back and disappeared. We're well beyond being neck deep in the mire and at this point it is just going to cost lives to do everything possible to ensure Iraq and the Iraqi people do in fact have the greatest shot possible at the freedom Bush has promised them.
I know it's the weekend, but... Iraqi briefed on Falluja plans missing Marines concerned captain could pass along information http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/06/falluja.missingcaptain/index.html Misinformation maybe, if they knew of a mole?
If it was misinformation, then when the hell are we gonna brief the Iraqi troops on the real plan? tbh, our army was screwed. On the one hand, it's pointless for us to conduct this operation without massive Iraqi troop support. OTOH, we had to know that there's massive infiltration of insurgents into the regular Iraqi army. I mean, *I* knew it, so I know for sure the army knew it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's almost as if this whole Stupid Pointless War was an abortion from the beginning.
Seems to me it is the radical muslim idiot fundamentalists who are doing most of the killing....of other muslims....
They were apparently just blowing off a little steam and getting a few laughs. Here's a pic from CNN.com that the caption to says they were re-enacting some scenes from Ben-Hur. THat's quite a blatant violation of the "don't ask, don't tell policy." http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0411/gallery.falluja.prep/gal.06.benhur.ap.jpg "Marines relaxing. Dressed as gladiators they chase a chariot in a scene reminiscent of "Ben-Hur."
No, I don't think I was making a counterpoint or a point for that matter. I was just thinking out loud, wondering, knowing how and why we are in this position, but not knowing how or why... I know many people may not believe this and I may have never made this point before, but I was with my brother when the night (early afternoon where we live) of "shock and awe" started. It was unreal, not even like a movie or the grand finale of a fireworks show. It was, to use a weak term, worse. My brother and I, not really religious or outwardly sentimental, grasped hands, bowed our heads and prayed in silence, together. Wierd, but true. I was shocked at the US military tactics. Sure, I want to "win" and what ever that means, but come on. I guess that idea of power that requires responsibility...ah, I don't want to think back, even now. Even after the final results from the election, I don't know where we are headed.
You're fighting phantoms that aren't there. Trust me. My comments were neither for, nor against actions at Fallujah. My comments are about the nightmare of trying to conduct war in the middle of a civilian population while trying to minimize civilian casualties. Anybody that simply says, "Hey, we'll kill the bad guys while sparing the civilians" (paraphrasing a previous poster), nevermind that they are intermingled, may look the same, etc., is severely ignorant of the difficulty of seeing it to a successful fruition.
I never wanted us to go in there in the first place. But there we are now. So what to do? This ain't easy. The insurgents may not all have MBA degrees from Wharton, but they know the guerilla business. And part of their tactics has been to imbed themselves with civilians. What is an appropriate response- sit back and say, "oh well, let's go home, they've made their point, we just can't get at them, they won't let us because they play unfair." Just asking.
The one good thing that I see is that the plan comes from local Marine comanders. They have been planning this attack for quite some time.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/08/iraq.main/index.html 1st ID is playing a large part role in this is well. I bet most of the overall plan is 'Army' as they're in charge of the overall situation. Undoubtebly, the Marines are in charge of their sector(s). Other notes: -Marines & Iraqi commandos have seized three bridges over the Euphrates as well as the hospital.
According to a phone call from a CNN reporter embedded with American forces... The invasion of the actual city has begun at dusk today. Forces are moving and airpower is plentiful.
I see your point. I can't agree more that anyone who believes this type of action could ever be "clean" just isn't paying enough attention to be commenting. The fact, if it is indeed a fact, that the vast majority of the population has left at least opens the door to a more aggressive assault. Sadly, there will no doubt be civilian casualties. 50,000 people in the way is still a hell of a lot of people in the way. 3,000 gorilla fighters hiding amongst them, using them as shields, scouts, bait, or whatever is going to lead to some sh!tty situations.
To begin with that isn't what I said, old chap. However, the 3,000+ strong army hiding out in Falluja would, indeed, be a good starting point for candidates to be shot and shot good. Good show my arse.
Was that me? For the record, My idea of keeping civillian casualties to minimum is not using artillery to bring down EVERY building you receive fire from.