No son, he has it right......you need to come to grips with the fact that these f--ks live for your destruction....better stop them now than in Tulsa in fifteen years.... "and we will meet out to the germans the measure...and more than the measure that they have meeted out to us" Winston Spencer Churchill....1941.....
Some plagiarizing arshole, probably the same one who's been tossing the "Hearts and minds" phrase around as if it was his idea. http://britains-smallwars.com/Desert_song/Hearts.htm
At the risk of getting off-topic, IMO, it had a lot more to do with Americans being sick and tired of a war that had no end in sight, that never directly threatened American security, that chewed up roughly 55,000 Americans over ten years, and physically and psychologically maimed many, many more. A war where the people we were defending were often shooting at us, or avoiding the heavy lifting. It had become totally indefensible, regardless of high oil prices. Much like the war in Iraq. Hm, I guess that wasn't so far off topic after all.
I think we may be suffering a commo failure. Dave said the military indicated the battle for Falluja "would be the beginning of the end", as in the end of the conflict. As for my needing "to come to grips with the fact that these f--ks live for your destruction", I am not sure why you think I don't get that. Does my opposition to the war suggest that to you? In my view the war in Iraq is an obscene waste of our energies, capabilities, money and lives. There are organizations that need infiltrating, and people who need killing. They weren't in Iraq enought to worry about. But they are now.
To counter a guerrilla adversary you need what, a 10 to 1 ratio of forces to start with. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-07-08-insurgency-count_x.htm So with 20,000 guerrilas you'd need 10 x 20,000 = 200,000 troops to win. We're just a hair short of that, no worries, move along, nothing to see here.
O.K.....you infiltrate them...I'd rather kill the f--ks.....rather kill them in Iraq than kill them in Tulsa.....learn the many lessons of the past.....and there are many.....
We are releasing these f--ks ?.. what ? they were in afganistan on f--kin' holiday ?.....or were they really there looking for the 27 ?...60...? virgins.... I never can remember the number..... what a joke religion islam is....
********ed like Paris Hilton. Screwed like Frankenstein's neck. Done like last Christmas dinner. Dead as disco. Why on earth are you indulging in this stupid, pointless, blinkered pose that military jargon is going to trump the ********ing obvious? In military terms? Man, you don't get it, do you? You don't even know what we're trying to win in Fallujah, do you? That's fine - neither does anyone else. Perhaps you could define how levelling Fallujah helps liberate Iraq. That's the real question. It wasn't this battle, although this particular battle had no hope of achieving its objectives from the very start. We lost this war at Abu Ghraib. Remember why they were so cheesed off with us in the first place, back in March when they desecrated the corpses of the mercenaries...er, "contractors"? You think a mob of people just decides to burn some foreigners and dance around their corpses? I know, I know, Muslims are animals and don't have human feelings. Well, it also turns out they knew about Abu Ghraib, and we didn't (yet). They're not going to forgive that. They're not going to get over it. Not until we leave. They don't give a ******** about 9/11 or Osama or any of that. And that's on top of the disadvantages a foreign occupier faces to begin with. Maybe, just maybe, it was theoretically possible to hold the country as a "liberator" without either the consent of the people or a willingness to use overwhelming force. Now, it's just academic. All we can do is decide when we leave, and how much blood we want to lose. Because we will leave. Sooner or later. They will never, never, never accept us. They will drive us out or die trying. Doesn't it bother the pro-war crowd that you can't even describe what victory would look like, at this point? I'm sure in fifteen years, the people on this thread, or their kids, will be spouting off a bunch of batshit lunacy about how the liberal media, or college professors, or hippes, kept us from winning in Iraq. The next Sylvester Stallone is probably already in some convent in Switzerland, never dreaming he will play the 2020 version of Rambo in Iraq, where "we get to win this time." As for fighting them in Iraq so we don't have to in Tulsa, it just goes to show the genius of American conservatism to find a theory even dumber than the domino theory. Conservatives won't believe the theory of evolution despite ten decades of scientific research, but they'll believe the flypaper theory despite a solid year of tragic failure. Get a brain, morans.
Oh boy, at it again, are we old chap? I see you've tossed your "sons" around again. Every time you say that I picture a 75 year old man sittin' on his porch and preachin' to his 5 year old grandkid about the dangers of them dang Muslims and the joke that is their religion. "Kill'em ALL I say! Kill'em all."
No, he didn't use those words. But please tell me you're not going to argue that Bush did not want every American to believe the War in Iraq had been won! That is exactly the message he wanted to send out, we were victorious. heh heh, maybe so.
You're right, it can't. There is still hope that the upswing in violence is temporary, however widespread it is. If we take Falluja and hold it there exists the possibility that the insurgency may lose sight of where it's going and begin to die down. I'm just not holding my breath based on current events.
Just FE (Everyone's) I, the insurgents have control of Mosul, a bigger city than Fallujah. Worst trade Bush has made since Sosa.
We are fighting the terrorists in the middle East instead of fighting them here. There can be no doubt that our presence in Iraq has Al Qaeda chomping at the bit to focus their attention there.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20041113/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq Basically he's saying that now you're considered hostile in Fallujah if you are an iraqi (except those wandering around while holding your hand). I guess the estimate number of terrorists and their supporters in iraq should be in the millions. p.s. Al qaeda doesn't exist. If all got to realize it a lot of media reports, leaders statements etc. would look really really bizarre. It's a fantasyworld we're living in.
Oh, I think Mosul will verry likely be next....and what then? You don't think the same thing will happen. Jesus! We told these people a week in advance (Gotto keep the media happy) 'we' were coming to Fallujah, so they could stay and wait for the mightiest army ever on earth and take us on with AK47's and RPG's!!! So what did they do, they piled onto toyota pickups and went to Mosel. Make sure that the West Point brained commanders who lead the mightiest army ever on earth give plenty of warning before flattening Mosul and what's left of the civilian population so the insurgents can pick a nice place to be before 'we' flatten that as well. Terrorism is about terror, these people don't care who gets killed. The object is to create a media furor so big that all the "Civilized" people of the world will be so appalled that they'll call for an end. The bloodier the better. And the current admin is feeding it for them...!
Right, but the point is, most of the people fighting us were NOT "terrorists" before we invaded. They were mostly Iraqis just living their lives. There are two insoluble difficulties with the flypaper theory. First, it assumes there's a static number of terrorists, which is retarded. Second, it's so obviously immoral to pick a country to make it the flypaper, that it's inconceivable that we would gain more than we'd lose in international cooperation. Well, there's a 3rd problem, which is that this ain't how Bush sold the war. Everyone of the other reason has failed, so they're trotting out some new bullsh**, and seeing who is naive enough to go along. Nobody serious believes that's why we're there. How yummy is the sandwich, Wanderer?
To do what they are doing car bombs making up road side bombs and making videos and then cutting off peoples head and kidnapping all require time and a safe house especially if you don't want to get caught if no one rats you out. If pressure is always on them, and you have to keep moving you can't do all that neat stuff. Need a place and time to do big things. So constant pressure will reduce most of this kind of things. What they did before they left FALLJUA was bury and mine the town, and take the car bombs they had already made and blow them up in some other places. Now if they leave iraqi forces in these towns who have some balls. The damage the rest of these scumbags do won't be able to do as much as they have done in the past. Then you might get a free election and while this is going on we or the iraqi should have squads out looking for the rest. Hit squads if you will.