The Prodigy: Kai Havertz thread

Discussion in 'Germany: National Teams' started by Epitome990, Jan 11, 2019.

  1. Brandko

    Brandko Member+

    Dec 12, 2013
     
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  2. Brandko

    Brandko Member+

    Dec 12, 2013
    Havertz started for Chelsea vs West Ham, and subbed off at the start of the 2nd half for Lukaku. Looks like he may have picked up an injury
     
  3. Brandko

    Brandko Member+

    Dec 12, 2013
  4. ShadowX

    ShadowX Member

    Borussia Dortmund
    Germany
    Sep 7, 2020
    A few thoughts on Kai Havertz.

    Looking back at his games for Leverkusen in the 18-19 & 19-20 seasons, his best position seemed to be the Right Forward in a front three of a 3-4-3 formation. Thus Chelsea have never played him optimally. Second best seemed to be CAM in 5-2-3-1 formation.

    It is quite possible that Kai Havertz has peaked. Whilst he made a big jump from 17-18 to 18-19 seasons, he made no progression from 18-19 to 19-20 seasons. That is very significant!
    And he has definitely made no progress in the year and a half he has been with Chelsea.
    However a Kai Havertz at that level is still a great player and definitely worthy of the German NT. We should just be wary of getting our hopes up that he is going to develope into a world class player.

    I personally feel he is not suited to the English Premier league. When I have watched him he doesn't seem to be able to handle the physicality and pace of the league. La Liga might be more suitable for him.

    Chelsea's overall style may not suit him. Havertz' team should be playing in a way to create space for him and Chelsea doesn't do that.

    I am not anti Kai Havertz. It's just that I have learned to be wary of German prospects who peak early and never reach where we thought they would. Trust me I am desperate to be proven wrong with Havertz but I think we should temper our expectations.
     
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  5. dips82

    dips82 Member+

    Oct 11, 2013
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Very well written analysis
     
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  6. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Havertz will have his name in CL and Chelsea history but besides that epl was always dumb move.

    not too sure why so many Germans fixated on epl, boring ass league.
     
  7. ShadowX

    ShadowX Member

    Borussia Dortmund
    Germany
    Sep 7, 2020
    Money and women.
     
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  8. Brandko

    Brandko Member+

    Dec 12, 2013
    In general, the movement of German players to La Liga isn't a high volume. There typically isn't much more than a handful at a time. Although when it does happen, it's usually with better calibre players on better clubs. Like when Özil and Khedira were at Real together, Kroos right now, and Ter Stegen at Barca.

    I wouldn't mind seeing more German players on top Serie A clubs tbh. They've done well for the most part in the ongoing recent years. You can also count German developed players like Calhanoglu at Inter too
     
  9. Collected

    Collected Member+

    Jul 19, 2014
    It's not like the Bundesliga is that exciting. We know who will win the title before a ball is kicked. The EPL has 3 world class teams fighting for the title this season which is a bit unusual. Serie A looks interesting as well this season. La Liga is kind of boring right now.
     
  10. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    just because Bayern wins doesn't make league not exciting, your sounding like typical non-1BL fan who shits on league for that.

    1BL is still very exciting and when clubs like Freiburg, Mainz, Koln doing so well makes it more fun too.

    trophy race isn't only exciting thing in a league.

    Also home league of German players will always be more exciting too.
     
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  11. Collected

    Collected Member+

    Jul 19, 2014
    I agree that the title race isn't the only thing that makes a league exciting. That said, in the Premier League they also have a race for 4th place usually until the last matchday of the season. Last season, it was between West Ham, Chelsea and Leicester. It's not unique to the Bundesliga to have several teams battling it out for European qualification or for relegation. Whether it is a small club doing it(fighting for a European spot) or not, the stakes are the same so in theory it should be equally exciting. Btw, I am not saying the EPL has an exciting title race every season. It has an exciting title race this season but the previous 2 seasons we knew the winner long before the end although we didn't know who would win before the beginning of the season. It depends on the season. 3 seasons ago, their title race was great.

    From a German perspective, of course the Bundesliga is more exciting than the EPL. However, the EPL is becoming more attractive and popular in Germany thanks to Klopp, Tuchel, Rangnick and current and former German players playing there such as Guendogan, Oezil, Mertesacker, Podolski, Werner, Sane, Havertz, Ruediger, etc. I mainly watch the Bundesliga but I try to catch the big games in La Liga, EPL and Serie A.

    Regarding Havertz in particular, he was quoted as saying that he watched the Premier League very often as a kid and loved Lampard as a player. He signed for Chelsea because of the big wages and for the chance to win the Champions League trophy.

    As for the small clubs like Mainz, Union Berlin, Freiburg doing well and making it exciting, these small clubs have a good Hinrunde and then they fall off in the Rueckrunde or even if they do well until the end, you just know they will be raided by the richer clubs and will suck next season. For me, this season is just a reminder of how badly mismanaged the big clubs(excluding Bayern and Dortmund) are. I would like to see HSV, Schalke, Stuttgart, Frankfurt and Hertha get a Klopp/Tuchel type of coach and fulfill their potential and become consistent. Those small clubs tend to have one or two young exciting players but in general their teams consist of hard-working experienced players who are not very talented. When they do well, it means the quality of the league is not good. Even you've said several times before that the level of the Bundesliga is not high.
     
  12. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    my issue with all non German clubs is don't give a shit about any club or city. Don't give 2 shits about Manchester or any English city nor any Spanish club or city, 0 ties, 0 care.

    watching any league for a coach is dumb and waste of time. Nor is spending time to watch a player in this club or that club.

    and I tried for 20 years and never could get into anything non German. That's only thing that excites me. That Rich history, rivalries, German youth and older players, fans etc.

    hardworking is not a bad thing for a club.

    as I said I don't really care much about how 1BL does in Europe anymore. So that fixation on qualty is meh. Might as well enjoy it. Clubs only care about themselves anyways.

    Also this stuff is passed down too, so if your father talks a lot about 60s, 70s, 80s of German footy that's also another factor.
     
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  13. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I do miss dying breed of 1 man clubs.

    if I was a pro would 100% be a 1 man club and only go higher club if I had NT prospects.

    if you play anywhere top flight your a millionaire anyways, more important things than money. Would rather build a legacy than be a one who flip flops between clubs and ends up forgotten by all clubs one plays at.

    so far, Havertz's legacy at Chelsea is winning them 2nd CL and that's it nothing much else. But if he doesn't showing productivity might not last beyond Summer 2022.

    in any case Havertz is back in training at Chelsea too.
     
  14. Dage

    Dage Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 4, 2008
    Berlin
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The Bundesliga is also the by far most offensive playing league with most goals scored far ahead of anybody else, thus you can see a lot of exciting goals and plays.
     
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  15. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    yes, that's a good point, this is a sport where attacking is most fun thing to watch as a fan and spectator too.

    although it causes Defense to be constantly exposed and not always looking good which in turn could explain why 1BL constantly concedes in Europe play.

    its a drawback I gladly take for that attacking footy focus.

    I know a lot of people who became big 1BL fans from watching Germany from 2006-2014 too.
     
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  16. ShadowX

    ShadowX Member

    Borussia Dortmund
    Germany
    Sep 7, 2020
    Agreed. I wouldn't even be surprised if something happened in this January transfer window. His productivity doesn't justify his wages.
     
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  17. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I think Bayern or La Liga could be only ones who can afford him.
     
  18. Collected

    Collected Member+

    Jul 19, 2014
    I was going to mention that too in my post. I forgot. It's a fair point. The number of goals makes the Bundesliga exciting for sure. That said, I think I saw Serie A( who would have thought?!) being the league with the most goals per game for this season until a couple of weeks ago. The Bundesliga wasn't far behind though and given the crazy matchday we had this past weekend, we might have surpassed them.
     
  19. Collected

    Collected Member+

    Jul 19, 2014
    I doubt that. I believe Tuchel is a big fan of Havertz and Ziyech is probably more likely to leave the club.
     
  20. ShadowX

    ShadowX Member

    Borussia Dortmund
    Germany
    Sep 7, 2020
    Not saying you are wrong but based on what?
     
  21. Collected

    Collected Member+

    Jul 19, 2014
    Okay, "a big fan'' is an exaggeration to be honest. Basically that's my feeling . There are several things that make me confident that he won't sell him in January and probably not in the summer. First of all, Tuchel knows very well how good Havertz was in the Bundesliga. I don't see Tuchel giving up on him when Havertz is only 22 years old. You don't sell a young 89-million-euro player after 18 months. No club would do that unless they are in a precarious financial situation like for example Barca is in right now. Chelsea is not struggling financially as far as I know.

    The EPL is a very tough league and he is not in his prime yet.

    Another thing to consider is that he is not a complete flop until now because he contributed not only in the Champions League final but also against Real Madrid in the semis and against Atletico in the last 16. He has shown potential for them. I doubt Tuchel cares about Havertz's wages and whether he justifies them right now or not. I think the fact that he is a fellow countryman is an important factor as well.

    From what I can recall Tuchel always defends him in interviews but of course that doesn't mean he is really happy with him behind the scenes.

    Tuchel gives him a lot of playing time when he is fit. I think he is happy with Havertz's pressing and tactical intelligence/off-the-ball movement. Before the West Ham game where he got injured in the first half, Havertz scored or assisted in three of his last four Premier League games. He was the standout player against Watford according to the fans and Tuchel himself so he might turn things around.

    Another factor for me is that Tuchel asked Dortmund to sign Schuerrle who was terrible at Wolfsburg so my logic is that if he liked Schuerrle then, he must like Havertz now lol. Tuchel also had Gonzalo Castro as a regular starter for 2 seasons. I don't remember if he asked for Rode or not. Anyway, in the past he has liked and given a lot of playing time to technically limited players so a naturally gifted and hard working player like Havertz should in theory not fall out of favor with Tuchel. I believe Kai will step up sooner rather than later.

    That being said, I was concerned by his comment after the Champions League final when he said that he was afraid of becoming a meme had he missed that big chance. It might mean he cares too much about what other people think of him. The criticism and pressure might get to him. That could potentially make him mentally weak.
     
  22. Brandko

    Brandko Member+

    Dec 12, 2013
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  23. Brandko

    Brandko Member+

    Dec 12, 2013
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  24. BorisG

    BorisG Member+

    Sep 30, 2009
    Namibia
    Club:
    FC Nürnberg
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Havertz scoring winning and important goals … 3/4 winning and important goals At the World Cup will take us far ….
     
  25. Brandko

    Brandko Member+

    Dec 12, 2013

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