This was the best episode yet. Just finished on BBC2. It made me more optimistic. All we need to do is wait for the present paranoia regarding terrorism to fade, then this ideology will be discredited. Another point I thought of is that perhaps things would not have been that much different with a President Kerry in this regard, as he would also have been locked into fighting this war on terrorism. The only pessimistic thought I had was that perhaps the neoconservative policy is giving terrorism a credibility it doesn't deserve, and possibly making it a greater danger. The basic synopsis for this part was as follows: 1) the Islamic revolutions in countries like Algeria and Egypt failed 2) the Islamic revolutionaries (including bin Laden) decided to change tactics, to attack American targets - starting with the East African embassies 3) In the Manhattan trial of the East African terrorists (including bin Laden in absentia) in January 2001, the concept of al-Qaeda was "invented" by the US Govt. Bin Laden apparently did not refer to al-Qaeda until after 9/11, when he realised that this was the term the West was using to refer to him and his colleagues. 4) 9/11 had been planted by another Islamic terrorist (not bin Laden or al-Zwahiri sp?). bin Laden just provided some finance. 5) In the post 9/11 environment, it went through several examples (in Britain, US and Afghanistan) of how al-Qaeda was supposed to have sleeper cells in the West and underground complexes in Afghanistan. But very little of this was true, as relatively innocent facts were twisted to fit an argument. 6) It went on to explain the ideology behind this - the "precautionary principle", which was first used by Greens (!) in relation to Global Warming. In the Green context this was "if there is any risk of a doomsday scenario from global warming, then we must do everything to stop it", regardless of the cost of stopping it (eg economic collapse) or the likelihood or severity of the worst case scenario. The precautionary principle in the terrorism case meant that freedoms have to be sacrificed to prevent the possibility of terrorism (eg arrest without trial). Of course, the problem with this is that it is impossible to disprove, ie prove a negative. My optimisim above stems from the hope that with time, people will realise that how small the risk is, and that it is not worth the cost that is being paid. A truly great mini-series.
Yes it was fantastic, It's made me realise alot of things, that series will go down in history. I think the future is great now, I have no fear. This society is playing on your fears, this generation is all about fear, because thats all we are motivated by. This is because we as a majority have it good right now, better than ever, life is easywe've had it drilled into us bout how bad was is in all the past generations. In the current climate its only the notion of losing this status which makes people take a stand, which gets them motivated. Where as before for the previous generations, they had it much worse than us living standards wise, alot of bad ******** went on within society unpunished, and in that period all it took to get people motivated, was politicians playing on the hopes of the people, and the promise of a better future now since we've got it good, all they need to do is play on our fears, and promise to ensure our safety from this "threat", which is self created and self maintained and still almost completely non existant - where are the Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan? Where are the Al-Qaeda in Iraq? Where the ********** are they!! Its sad but its true There was 3000 people killed in WTC, and it was a deplorable act But since WTC attacks there's been nothing and in the three years since 9/11 in the states theres been about 18,000 murders a year over social problems. Where are the priorities? If we die a spectacular death does it make the frequency of the act irrelevant? A true government should be there to take care of social problems and stop deaths relating to these problems from becoming a possibility, cut out the causes! Out fundin schools and hospitals etc... not go off on a crusade against a fictional army of radicals.. they're only radical because they believe in something, everyone else doesnt believe in anyting its all good though, all this is due to the paranoia on our parts, the leaders see they can manipulate this to their ends. As soon as we stop being paranoid, they lose the power. If we educate people on the facts, then they lose thier power.. They know this too, thats why they haven't told any of us Brilliant program
Nothing in the US, of course. There was the terrible assault on the train network around Madrid on 11th March this year, and the nightclub bomb on the Indonesian island of Bali. Of course, that is partly the irony of this "precautionary" principle, in that it might have a point if it did stop all terrorism (and if there would have been lots of terrorism if the principle wasn't applied), but there still has been some terrorism (in other parts of the world) despite this. Which is part of the reason why the Green application of this principle fell down - they scaremongered so much about the possibility of a climate disaster, that many people took the view that "what the hell does it matter what I do, if it is going to happen anyway?", so they end up acting as normal. I am confident, however, that people will eventually realise that the costs of this principle outweigh the benefits of somewhat reducing an already miniscule risk. I think people in the US (and perhaps elsewhere) were thrown into a state of shock by 9/11, and this has suspended some of the rationality in this decision making, as people now think the risk is greater than the underlying reality.
Taped the last two eps. For what it's worth. America has chosen a path where "moral values" is the MOST important issue to them (22%, with the next closest issue in exit polling being their jobs - 20% - and with health care and education at 8% and 4% respectively), in a national religious context that mandates the End Days. Do you get the significance of that? A nation that submits as a mandate that it wants its vote to reflect a morality grounded in a dogma that DEMANDS the end of the world... Europe's best bet is NOT to try to distribute this series for viewing to Americans, but rather to Europeans; the best strategy is containment; get this version of America to eat its own tail, to consume itself and burn itself out while hopefully doing minimal damage to other projects like the potential of an alternative vision of how to be in the world as propagated by the transnational potential/internal market of the EU generally, and the Erasmus generation specifically. Thanks to the BBC for the series even though they got too scared to advertise it.
sorry i missed it. in fact, i don't even know what the hell U guys are talking about. am very glad to hear there is so much cause for hope. ps. hey Mel, what is the Erasmus generation? just curious. thanx in advance.
You Euro-libs are hilarious. BushCo invented al Queada, huh? Very creative! We DEMAND the end of the world? Mel, you're a nut. Do you realize that these propaganda documos you watch brainwash you?
!953 etc... this docu is for aware ppl and ppl who wants to understand it is not stuff for you. You would get only an headache and you would get offended by what the crude depiction of neocon world shows and implies. Here is part 3. http://66.90.75.92/suprnova//torrents/2946/The Power of Nightmares 3 of 3 VCD-mpg.torrent The only problem now is that there's only 1 seeding and 141 waiting to dload.
Perhaps if you actually watched the programme, you would have a better idea of what we're talking about. The point about how the term al-Qaeda came about was that the state was bringing this trial in relation to the embassy bombings in East Africa. But they also wanted to trial bin Laden in absentia. There was no evidence of him actually aiding and abetting the actual crime as it happened, so they had to prosecute him like they would a mafia godfather or a drugs baron. The problem, however, was that there was no such organisation as you would find in the mafia or in drugs. There was the Islamic Jihad structure, but these attacks in East Africa were clearly conducted independent of that, as there were disagreements between the Islamic terrorists. So to be able to bring a trial against bin Laden with a chance of success, they had to demonstrate that there was an organisation with bin Laden at its head. To do this they relied on the testimony of someone who had been involved in the training camps.
Dontcha just love the way 1953 jumps in, tells us the error of our ways and yet provides not one single iota of evidence to back up his assertion. Welcome to New America
Which is ironic, because the point of this precautionary principle is that you don't need any evidence to justify your argument. I could say that an asteroid is going to hit the Earth next year and we've got to stop it. You could reasonably point that there is no evidence of this. But I can say that you can't prove it won't happen, so we need to spend $$$ on loads of military and space technology to stop it happening.
Excellent series. It also connected very well with Jonathan, (not David as I said before... twit), Dimbledy's 'The New World War' which had a follow up discussion last night. Thinking further about the theme of fear*, it seems to me that people do have great difficulty thinking about levels of danger accurately. In the UK there has been great debate about the dangers of the MMR vaccine. I saw an interview with a doctor who said that, if there is any risk, it's so small as to be immeasurable - literally, not measurable. A baby is in a great deal more danger from, for example, car exhausts such as those bloody great 4x4's driven by the sort of hysterical women that bleats endlessly about dangers to their offspring like the MMR vaccine. People often worry about the dangers of fatty foods and then drive around at ridiculous speeds in their cars. There are roughly 800 people killed every week on American roads, (the UK figure's about 60), as opposed to under 3000 on 9/11. Actual road deaths in the UK can be multiplied by about 10 for early deaths caused by respiratory problems of which the major factor is pollution... and don't even get me started about the amounts of saturated fats, salt and suger in our diet. Frankly we're in more danger from the worlds sugar corporations than we are from Bin Laden. *That sentence reminds me of the rather saucy tongue-twister - try and say this quickly 6 times fellas... 'I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant pluckers mate. I'm only plucking pheasants for the pheasant pluckers sake''
That's what I've been saying for some time. I live in Madrid, wheere as you know they put a bomb in a railway station.Had it exploded 45 minutes later, I could have been caught by the explosion. I know no one that died in the bombings. No friend of mine knows no one that died in the bombings. But I know four people that have died, or are diying recently of cancer. Tell me to be scared of terrorists. 2004 is the year of the worst terrorist strike in Spanish history. 200 Died. But in July and August of this year alone, 700+ died in traffic accidents. That day I got scared. I compared the numbers: that guys killed 200 in one day, ETA had killed 800 in 40 years. Maybe we are used to death. In two weeks people was sitting in the streets again, drinking and enjoying the sun. No one got depressed, no one talks of his dire memories of that day. I'm gonna die anyway, what matters to me is living a decent life. So, I'm not as scared as to allow my rights to be thrashed in the name of any menace.
Note: To use that torrent you have to sign up at www.uknova.com (which is a great site for British TV shows). Hopefully a public torrent will be out eventually.
What stays with me is the introduction... In the past politicians promised to create a better world; they had different ways of acheiving this, but their power and authority came fro mthe optimistic visions they offered their people. Those dreams failed, and today, people have lost faith in ideologies. Increasingly, politicians are seen simply as managers of public life. But now, they have discovered a new role that restores their power and authority. Instead of delivering dreams, politicians now promise to protect us from nightmares...
I haven't actually watched any of the BBC documentary, I wish I had now, although, to be honest, it dosen't sound like anything new. The idiot Dimbleby's (the ITV one) documentary on ITV was disgraceful I thought. It was nothing more than American style scare mongering. Admitadly, I only saw one episode but in it he was basically listing loads of reasons which could lead to the next World Was or new terrorists. The most laughable was when he tried to suggest that Lebanon, taking 5% of the water from a river which reached Israel (45km downstream) could lead to a full blown war in the Middle East. An absolute joke! I'm really disappointed by America, it seems that the religious right has gone mad. They're being told that everything from Middle EAstern terrorists to gays are going to bring about the apocalypse and it looks like they're beleiving it. In Britain, it's worse than I would like but not anywhere near the same level (probably due to the low number of Christians). It was a disgrace that so many people here accepted Tony Blair's reasong for war in Iraq.
Agreed - I don't think it's right to refer to America as a whole though, the views in the country are so disparate that you have to distinguish between the righteous and those who actually got off their arses and educated themselves about just what exactly had been done in their name by this government. The Daily Mirror front page had it spot on in my view
I know. I probably didn't make that clear enough, I wasn't having a go at normal Americans for being stupid, just all the church going, right wing nut jobs which got Bush in.
You shuld have watched a few more. It wasn't scare-mongering as such... although it was scary. He was trying to put some perspective into the reasons for conflict throughout the world. He was saying that, if we continue to screw people, at some point they're going to start fighting back. Y'know what? - I think he's right. For every dollar the west gives to the third world in aid they take 2 out in interest charges on debt repayment and restrictive trade practices... all the time lecturing them about the benefits of a free market. It probably seems ludicrous to us in Britain where it rains all the time but it's not quite so silly when you're in the middle east.
It's not that new, really. "New America, getting involved in your business since 1946!" And, easy now, Prawn, I was one of those 59 million plus the Daily Mirror was talking about..
I know Coach - I generally try and avoid politics discussions with you as our views appear to be so far apart - wouldn't want a bunfight over politics to spoil a beautiful friendship....
Of course - I shall then be toasting sweet victory yet again as you begin your next weeks penance of starting those posts on the Man U forum. As a parting gift though, this might tickle your fancy and is doing the email rounds in the UK at the moment.... NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE TO CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA In light of your failure to make the correct decision in electing your President, thus showing you to be unfit to govern yourselves, we hereby give you notice of the revocation of your independence effective as of Monday 8Th November 2004. Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she doesn't much fancy. Your new Prime Minister, the Rt. Hon. Tony Blair M.P., for the 97.85% of you unaware of the outside world, will appoint a Minister for America without the need for further elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be circulated in twelve months time to determine if any of you noticed. To aid your transition into a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect: 1. All citizens are to look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. While there, check the pronunciation guide for "aluminium" - this may be surprising for you. Generally attempt to raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". Using the same 27 words interspersed with "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable form of communication. Look up "interspersed". 2. There is no such thing as "U.S. English". We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. 3. Learn to distinguish British and Australian accents. Its not difficult. 4. Hollywood will henceforth be required to occasionally cast Englishmen as good guys. 5. Re-learn your original anthem, "God Save the Queen". Please ensure that you have complied with the first law before attempting this. 6. Stop playing American "football". There is only one kind of "football". What you refer to as "football" is not a very good game. The 2.15% of you aware of a world outside of your borders may have noticed that no one else plays it. Play proper football instead; to start with get the girls to help you - it is a difficult game. Those of you brave enough will, eventually, be allowed to play rugby, which is similar to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full Kevlar body armour like nancies. 7. Declare war on Quebec and France, using nukes if they give you any merde. The 97.85% of you unaware of the outside world should count yourselves lucky - the Russians have never really been bad guys. 8. 4th July is no longer a public holiday. 2nd November will be the new national holiday. 9. American cars are hereby banned. They are crap; its for your own good. When we show you German cars you'll understand. 10. Please tell us who killed JFK. Its been driving us crazy. THANK YOU FOR YOUR CO-OPERATION.