The Philadelphia Union Thread

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by ussoccer97531, Mar 21, 2021.

  1. Eldinter

    Eldinter Member

    Jul 28, 2009
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's also Richards but he's another one that never played for Dallas. The rankings might differ depending on whether we view it strictly as coming out of the academy or playing for the club and then being sold.
     
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  2. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Weston > Richards > Aaronson for me. Of course, if we're doing academy players that never played for a team ... Philly also gets Steffen.

    But we're also forgetting NYRB here -- Howard (not academy), Adams, Miazga.

    This all said, I'm not sure I would crown Philly yet. They may have better prospects now according to many but they don't have the production yet.

    More importantly, I'm not sure why we have to tear down one to raise another. For me, I think we should probably be keeping track of all the academies that have reached a certain level of production.
     
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  3. Kombucha

    Kombucha Member+

    Jul 1, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    I think by pretty much any metric Dallas is still on top based on players produced as Philly have really only produced the following so far that have had MLS or greater careers.

    This is how I would ranked them for each team based on current contributions to 1st Team soccer regardless of league and money brought into team through fees.

    1) Aaronson
    2) McKenzie
    3) Trusty
    4) Fontana
    5) Real
    6) Derrick Jones

    A rather weak case could be made for counting Steffen, but he hardly played with the Union and the Union couldn't even sign him as a HGP.

    Nor have they transferred any prospects to lesser leagues for money.

    FC Dallas has

    1) McKennie (never signed, but did play for years with FCD)
    2) Cannon
    3) Richards (never played, but did sign)
    4) Acosta
    5) Reynolds
    6) Pomykol
    7) Ferreira
    8) Pepi
    9) Ulloa
    10) Gonzalez
    11) Servania
    12) Tessmann
    13) Munjoma

    FC Dallas also sold Richard Sanchez and Alex Zendajas to Liga MX for a combined $1.5 Million even though neither really have had much of a career.

    I think the Union future trajectory is brighter, but had to judge the past even the immediate past and not put Dallas on top.
     
  4. Kombucha

    Kombucha Member+

    Jul 1, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    Agree. NYRB have similar production to Philly and their Top 2 are better than Philly right now with Adams and Miazga.

    1) Adams
    2) Miazga
    3) Sean Davis
    4) Kyle Duncan
    5) Conner Lade
    6) Alex Muyl
    7) Derrick Etienne Jr
    8) Omir Fernadez

    Pretty comparable, but Philly has much better pipeline and should pass what they have done in the immediate future with the RBNY pipeline pretty bare outside Tolkin and Estrela.
     
  5. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    And what's the cut-off for giving some sort of credit? McKennie has been half excluded here because he never played for FC Dallas, but he spent a lot of time in their academy. He should count. So should Steffen for Philly, frankly.

    Caden Clark didn't spend any time in RBNY academy ... but he's going to spend 18 months developing there and he's already getting better.

    Richards was less than a year at FC Dallas, right? He's probably more borderline -- I'd say more borderline than giving NYCFC credit for Gio Reyna, who spent a lot more time there than Richards did at Dallas.
     
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  6. frankburgers

    frankburgers Member+

    May 31, 2016
    Yes. Lol
     
  7. Kombucha

    Kombucha Member+

    Jul 1, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    I don't know exactly, but I think you have to play for the academy for some period of time that is greater than a year. If you then sign a contract that cuts some of that academy time down.

    I would count McKennie. No debate for me. He was in Dallas Academy for ~7 years until that age of 18, so unless you have to sign a contract with the club to qualify then I don't see how you don't count him.

    Richards is the prospect who Dallas has the weakest claim too because he was really only in their Academy for around a year. He played 23 matched for FC Dallas Academy. If he didn't sign a deal with Dallas, I wouldn't count him ala Cappis, but he did sign, so it becomes harder to not include a player that both played in the Academy and signed a 1st Team contract. I do think you could make a compelling case not to include him simple due to not being in the system for much over a year.

    Steffen only played in a handful of Tournaments for the Union. He wasn't in their Academy for long enough to qualify for a HGP deal, which is pretty lenient, so I wouldn't count him.

    Gio Reyna. He played for NYCFC for ~ 5 years and then signed a pro deal, so I would count him for NYCFC. ~5 years is enough to qualify especially if it is the immediate 4 years prior to signing a pro deal.

    Clark is the next hardest to determine because he didn't play in their Academy at all, but did sign a Pro deal and played in the NYRB system for over a year prior to turning 18. Not all that dissimilar than Richards, but Richards did play in the Academy albeit for We are talking about Academies though and Clark never played a game, so hard to put him in the NYRB column. If you expand to include palyers NYRB didn't have in Academy, but developed through their RBII pipeline then their sucess definitely grows and out paces almost ever team.
     
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  8. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I didn't realize Steffen was only so shortly with the Union.

    I agree. And I don't think we need an answer; it's just an interesting discussion. I don't think there actually needs to be a firm cut-off. All of these teams are helping, who's #1 is less relevant.
     
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  9. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    The truth is that for almost all players "it takes a village." Players like Cannon, Pomykal, the Gomez brothers, Emerson Hyndman, etc. all started at other clubs in DFW before moving to FCD.

    So "giving credit" is almost besides the point. Scouting, player identification, recruitment, etc. is just as important as developing the kids from the ground up. Ultimately it doesn't matter at all how NYRB acquired Cade Clark or how Philly acquired Leon Flach and on and on. Chris Richards was eligible to move to any club in the US. Gianluca Busio was eligible to move to any club in the US. Tanner Tessmann was eligible to move to any club in the US. Those clubs did the business.......................
     
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  10. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member+

    Liverpool
    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    Dallas has more players than Philly because they started investing earlier, it’s obvious and it has helped them tremendously. Philly appear to be spending more money towards their academy than anyone and are gaining an upper hand in the 04-below ages. Long term and short term past success goes to Dallas, future success points to Philly. But even if Philly leave Dallas behind it’s not like Dallas will be a bad academy, they’ll still be in the top tier of MLS academies, Philly is just doing everything right

    Both Dallas and Philly have in my opinion special talents in Matthew Corcoran and Cavan Sullivan. Dallas also gets to lay claim to the best individual age group production among all academies with their 03 which no one looks to be contesting any time soon
     
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  11. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Do European fans do this kind of hair splitting about who gets credit for a players development, and pit their team against each other to determine who has a better academy? It's strange to me. It's all about scouting, signing, and developing from age 8-30. Every single player through the continuum from kiddie to first team veteran goes through that process.
     
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  12. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's true that all clubs scout, recruit, and sign whoever they can at various ages, I do think it is useful to draw distinctions when we are trying to evaluate what our domestic academies are and are not good at doing.

    Recruiting players like Clark and Flach and helping them continue to develop as professionals is good. Training players successfully from a young age like McKennie is good too. Ideally clubs would be good at both of these things, but that's not always true and it's worthwhile to understand what the situation is.
     
  13. Kombucha

    Kombucha Member+

    Jul 1, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    I would imagine on a niche board on Grande Football that academy strengths and weaknesses of Spanish clubs gets dissected and compared because this is what people do on the internet. Have pointless discussions on otherwise mundane topics that by and large don’t matter.
     
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  14. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    A little bit...................but the bottom line is trophies.
    I don't think a Barca or Bayern or Liverpool fan cares at all if the players are coming from their academy or not.
    They'll just sing "he's one of our own" if he is. When Leicester won the Premier League, how many former academy players did they use?

    Its a weird American thing going on right now because we've historically been obsessed with the potential future as opposed to the present.

    Its like the folks that obsess over which MLB team has the minor league system at any one point. It can be the Texas Rangers one year and then five years later the Rangers can have the 28th best farm system.

    Right now Philly might be a head of Dallas, but 5 years from now who the hell knows? 5 years ago we were talking about RSL as surging to the lead. They had the most homegrown minutes of any club one year and had a bunch of promising youngsters in their academy (Ledezma, Soto, etc.). But now what?

    A lot of academies are investing, and some years from now there will be 15 clubs in this debate. The crown of "best academy system" will be passed around just like it is in baseball.

    And people act like it actually matters. What matters is that Philly is winning and Dallas isn't. That's the #1 bullet point on an professional club's "mission statement." Win the damn games.
     
  15. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--

     
  16. Eighteen Alpha

    Eighteen Alpha Member+

    Aug 17, 2016
    Club:
    Stoke City FC
  17. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I think this discussion is best distilled into a few parts.

    Best academy products-Clearly Dallas IMO. I don’t think many would argue for another team.

    Best current academy-There might be debate, but I think most agree Philly has more talented players within their academy right now. That doesn’t mean Dallas now has a bad academy or won’t produce players, but there are more pro prospects within Philly’s academy than Dallas’ and probably every other academy.

    Which club gets the title of best academy when you combine those elements is up for debate, but I think the discussion should be split into a few parts because that gives an easier picture to understand.
     
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  18. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even though it's not part of the "academy" strictly speaking, I also like to take into account how clubs handle and manage their young professionals because even though they players have graduated from the academy it's obviously a very important part of the developmental process. And right now, you have to give the edge to Philly there because they seem to have a plan and pathway for their kids, whereas FC Dallas has a hodgepodge roster and an unstable and inconsistent tactical approach.
     
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  19. TMBMiles

    TMBMiles Member

    Dortmund
    United States
    Mar 31, 2017
    You never know how kids that young are going to develop over the years, but Cavan Sullivan is one of the most technically gifted players his age I’ve ever seen the US produce.
     
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  20. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I think it's commendable the job they do with recruiting players, integrating players into the first team, and I think their coaching in the first team is good. However, I have big problems with their player usage and tactics in their U-15 academy.

    I'm not against moving around player positions for a game or two or three. There are all kinds of reasons for this stuff, but we are getting close to about half of a season where two of their three best prospects in their '06 age group, Jaden Francis and Matt Routzahn, are being used in positions that absolutely doesn't suit their skillset.

    Francis is being used as a CF. His strengths are his ability to win the ball, his passing, athleticism, and composure on the ball. He does not have any offense in his game. It shows in his performances as a CF. He's almost completely ineffective. Routzahn is being used as a #6. His strengths are his combination play, his hold up play, his skill, and his finishing. He doesn't have the long range passing or tackling needed to play as a #6, and he doesn't perform well in this position. It seems like they almost decided to inverse the positions of these two players.

    They've also switched the position of Alex Perez from LCB to DM. That is more sensible, although I still would keep him at LCB for now, and if he doesn't grow tall enough you switch him in 2-3 years. Way too early for that type of switch. Another personnel decision that might be having an effect on this is that Gael Medrano has been playing a lot more with the U-15's in recent months than the U-17's. He's playing in the CF position. They've had Henry Bernstein, an '07, in the U-15's all season. While he's not a bad player, he completely isn't needed to play up a year. He's not a star type of player. If there's too many players in CM, why not move him down?

    I think how they rate two very average (at best) prospects Bernstein and Medrano is hurting the development of two of their better prospects (Francis and Routzahn). I'm sure there is a reasoning for all of this. I'm sure it was thought out, and I'm not saying I'm always right about my analysis, but I've thought the coaching in this team has been atrocious to the point of detrimental to the players long-term development in the second half of the season. I've previously complained about the coaching in their reserve team last season where I thought they misused players like Sullivan, Huckaby, Craig (to a lesser extent). I think they deserve credit when they get things right, but they also need to be criticized when they get things wrong, and I think they are doing a terrible job in this regard.
     
  21. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member+

    Liverpool
    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    Henry Bernstein’s soccer IQ and passing are elite compared to all other players at the u15 level. His athleticism is a concern but in regards to the other assets he has as an 8 he has no business playing against his own age group who he’s far surpassed
     
  22. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #222 Clint Eastwood, Jul 4, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2021
    I travel all over the world. People have this kind of debate everywhere. It's fun, particulary if there are a lot of options. Who has the best academy in Argentina? Who has the best academy in Germany? [They don't really have this debate in England. Everton and Southampton might have the best academies, but they never win anything..........so who cares? That's their mindset anyway. The only thing that matters in England is first team success with whomever you can get.]

    We should expect there to be different clubs on the leader board each year in terms of academy impact and production. That's what we want. DCU is really making a push in the East for instance. They're using a bunch of kids and they're really productive. I won't be surprised if at the end of the year DCU has more thread eligible minutes than Philly. So hell, even week to week we can have a different outlook. Last night Philly didn't start an academy product, and just one came off the bench (Sullivan). It was a lineup of almost no interest to USMNT fans. The only Americans in their starting XI were Bedoya and Flach. They lost to Nashville.

    We have three really intriguing games for Philly in a row to see if they're going to be SS contenders or pretenders. NYRB, DCU, and Orlando. All games of interest for us on these boards.
     
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  23. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Yeah, I think a better overall discussion is how many teams are in the "doing it right and productive" bucket out of 27 (or a bit less if you want to give Austin and other expansion teams some time).

    Dallas
    Philly
    DC seems to be gaining consensus
    NYRB back on track
    Colorado?
    RSL?

    How do people feel about NYCFC?

    Chicago and San Jose and a number of others seem to be on the right track.
     
  24. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member+

    Liverpool
    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    Need to see consistency before we can say a club is doing it right and this is where Dallas and Philly separate from the others. In a weak age group they still will produce a pro or two and now are selling those pro’s to Europe. Dallas has shown with historical production and Philly is showing current production. NYRB and RSL have arguments to be listed here but to lesser extents. NYRB had a gap in production but are rolling again and RSL have had the prospects but 90% of keep leaving for Europe before signing HG deals

    DC had a very good singular age group with their 2003’s but out of their 01, 02, and 04 groups they’ll only produce one pro there. Their 05’s and 06’s also aren’t very strong. For a metro area of their population they should be doing better. What DC has improved on is academy player integration now that they actually play the kids

    Colorado is the major name in this group that doesn’t belong. The rapids do a great job of having a good hit rate for their homegrowns but do not have a very good amount of prospects they actually develop. The rapids hope to hit on their 04’s in Darren Yapi and Jackson Travis and wisely picked up Dantouma Toure after he was made available but after those guys the academy is bleak
     
  25. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #225 bshredder, Jul 6, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
    Condolences to Philadelphia Union and former USYNT goalkeeper Matt Freese on the loss his father at the age of 61.

    Dr. Andrew Freese was a remarkable and accomplished man. A graduate of Harvard undergrad and medical school he boasted an impressive resume that has helped the world of medicine to the benefit of everyone.

    https://www.inquirer.com/obituaries...FVMdhh4ut1UwZvk_7KxJ6pgk9qgLbkeI5J7Dkha5SJK4Q

    ____

    Dr. Andrew Freese, 61, of Chester Springs, a noted neurosurgeon who performed the first successful gene-therapy trial for neurological disease in a human being, died Wednesday, June 30, of kidney failure at Brandywine Hospital in Coatesville.

    Until recently, Dr. Freese had been chief of neurosurgery and neurosurgical medical director at Brandywine Hospital.

    He spent much of the last 30 years as a neurosurgeon in the Philadelphia area, starting as a resident at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania.

    He later became vice chairman of neurology at Thomas Jefferson University Hospital. He also worked at Graduate Hospital, Einstein Medical Center, and in private practice.

    On July 6, 2001, The Inquirer published a front-page article about the “experimental gene-therapy” surgery Dr. Freese performed on a 3-year-old boy who had Canavan’s disease, a rare genetic disorder that causes deterioration of the white matter, or myelin, in the brain.

    Gene therapy is a procedure where doctors infuse healthy genes into cells to replace or supplement defective ones.

    Jack Freese, Dr. Freese’s son, said that first patient recently turned 22, becoming the longest-living person ever to survive with Canavan’s disease. The life expectancy for someone with the disease is typically about 10 years.

    ______
     

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