In order to evaluate the level & competitivity of the Paulista when Pelé played there I made some researches, explored some statistics and I'm making this post to share those researches. Comparing this league to other leagues and especially examining the level of the Paulista compared to nowadays is quite of a hard thing to do but to have a good comparison I decided to compare some data from Paulista from 1957 to 1968 (after that year the format changed and it's quite uncomparable) to LaLiga from 2004-05 (Messi's debut season) to 2015-16. The main stat I used is standard deviation. Standard deviation : The standard deviation is a measure of how dispersed the data of a dataset is. It can be adapted to judge the competitivity of a league by measuring the standard deviation of points of every team, and this is how I will use it. A higher standard deviation means a more dispersed dataset, meaning in the context of the post a more unbalanced league. Share of points by top 3 : The number of points the top 3 teams gained as percentage (%) of the total points that were won in the league. A higher percentage (%) means the top 3 teams dominate the league more. I adjusted the point system to 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and 0 point for a loss in order to measure those statistics. 1957 vs 2004-05 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004–05_La_Liga#League_table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957_Campeonato_Paulista#Final_standings Standard deviation : 16.944 for Paulista, 14.360 for LaLiga. Share of points by T3 : 23.11% for Paulista, 22.02% for LaLiga. I'll also add the results of T4 Paulista clubs (Santos, Palmeiras, Corinthians, Sao Paulo) against European clubs in those years and in (parenthesis) the place at which the respective European clubs finished in their national league. 25/07/1957 Palmeiras 0 x 3 Benfica (1st) Palmeiras finished 9th of the Paulista. 12/01/1957 Santos 1 x 0 AIK (6th) 23/07/1957 Santos 3 x 2 Benfica (1st) Santos finished 2nd. 19/06/1957 Corinthians 2 x 0 Sevilla (2nd) 23/06/1957 Corinthians 5 x 0 Lazio (3rd) Corinthians finished 1st (on overall finish) and 3rd in the phase that decided the winner. 21/06/1957 Sao Paulo 2 x 2 Sevilla (2nd) 27/06/1957 Sao Paulo 1 x 0 Lazio (3rd) Sao Paulo finished 3rd (on overall finish by points) and won the Paulista in the phase that decided the winner. In comparison, Spain was 1st on the UEFA coefficients. LaLiga was the best league in Europe, and was just a bit more competitive than the Paulista who had good results against the best teams of Europe. 1958 vs 2005-06 Standard deviation : 18.954 for Paulista, 14.671 for LaLiga Share of points by T3 : 23.68% for Paulista, 21.35% for LaLiga No results for Brazilian clubs as no games were played that year against European clubs. LaLiga was still first in the UEFA coefficient while being again just a bit more competitive then Paulista. 1959 vs 2006-07 Standard deviation : 18.769 for Paulista, 13.467 for LaLiga Share of points by T3 : 23.55% for Paulista, 21.40% for LaLiga Results of Brazilian clubs (I changed their national ranking to their rank on the UEFA ranking in 1960 : 15/2/1959 Santos 3 x 4 Dukla Praga (13th) 26/5/1959 Santos 1 x 0 Royal Standard (18th) 27/5/1959 Santos 4 x 2 Anderlecht (1st of the Belgian league) 30/5/1959 Santos 1 x 2 La Gantoise (5th of the Belgian league) 3/6/1959 Santos 3 x 0 Feyenoord (5th of the Eredivisie) 5/6/1959 Santos 2 x 3 Internazionale (9th) 6/6/1959 Santos 6 x 4 Fortuna Dusseldorf (3rd of Oberliga West) 7/6/1959 Santos 3 x 3 Nürnberg (3rd of Oberliga Süd) 9/6/1959 Santos 4 x 1 Servette (9th of Switzerland league) 17/6/1959 Santos 3 x 5 Real Madrid (1st) 19/6/1959 Santos 2 x 2 Sporting (53rd but 4th of Portuguese league, UEFA ranking of the beginning is quite dodgy) 24/6/1959 Santos 4 x 4 Valencia (4th of LaLiga) 26/6/1959 Santos 7 x 1 Internazionale (9th) 29/6/1959 Santos 5 x 1 Barcelona (2nd) 30/6/1959 Santos 4 x 2 Genoa (11th) 2/7/1959 Santos 0 x 3 Wien 5/7/1959 Santos 2 x 2 Real Bétis (6th) Santos finished 1st of the Paulista. 20/5/1959 Corinthians 2 x 3 Stade Reims (3rd) 21/5/1959 Corinthians 1 x 5 Feyenoord (5th of the Eredivisie) 24/5/1959 Corinthians 3 x 2 Bayern 4/6/1959 Corinthians 1 x 1 Benfica (2nd of Portuguese league) 7/6/1959 Corinthians 1 x 0 Porto (1st of Portuguese league) 17/6/1959 Corinthians 4 x 3 Sevilla (40th but 12th of LaLiga) 24/6/1959 Corinthians 5 x 3 Barcelona (2nd) Corinthians finished 5th of the Paulista. LaLiga in 06-07 was still first of the UEFA coefficient, and was a bit more competitive than Paulista who was clearly among the best league in the world. If you didn't get it yet, my logic is that people will say Messi and Ronaldo played in the best league in the world, and those who say that Pelé played in a bad league are contradictory because LaLiga in Messi and Ronaldo's times was barely more competitive than the Paulista in Pelé's time while the teams of the Paulista themselves performed good against the best European sides. 1960 vs 07-08 Standard deviation : 13.496 for Paulista, 14.247 for LaLiga (Paulista is less unbalanced for the first time) Share of points by T3 : 23.20% for Paulista, 21.75% for LaLiga 2/10/1960 São Paulo 1 x 0 Sporting (2nd of Portuguese league) Sao Paulo finished 8th of Paulista in 1960. 20/5/1960 Santos 4 x 3 Standard Liège (18th) 27/5/1960 Santos 9 x 1 Munchen 1860 28/5/1960 Santos 6 x 0 Anderlecht (1st of Belgian league) 31/5/1960 Santos 10 x 1 Royal Beerschot (4th of Belgian league) 1/6/1960 Santos 3 x 2 Roma (35th) 3/6/1960 Santos 0 x 3 Fiorentina (20th) 7/6/1960 Santos 5 x 3 Stade de Reims (3rd) 9/6/1960 Santos 4 x 1 Racing de Paris (3rd of French Ligue 1) 11/6/1960 Santos 5 x 2 La Gantoise (9th of Belgian league) 14/6/1960 Santos 4 x 2 Eintracht Frankfurt (17th) 15/6/1960 Santos 4 x 2 Hertha Berlin 17/6/1960 Santos 3 x 1 Stade de Reims (3rd) 19/6/1960 Santos 2 x 2 Espanyol 23/6/1960 Santos 3 x 0 Toulouse 25/6/1960 Santos 1 x 0 Valencia 2/7/1960 Santos 3 x 4 Barcelona (2nd) Santos finished first. Paulista in 1959 was even more competitive than LaLiga "prime", "best league in the world", while still having their teams performing against good European sides. 1961 vs 08-09 Standard deviation : 17.561 for Paulista, 14.518 for LaLiga Share of points by T3 : 30% for Paulista, 22.23% for LaLiga (after that year I'll stop using that data since Paulista will have only 18 teams or less so obviously the share of points won by the top 3 teams will be logically larger) I'll only note the ranking of teams who are in the UEFA ranking, not the league position anymore. 30/1/1961 Palmeiras 2 x 1 Dínamo Bucareste (49th) 4/2/1961 Palmeiras 1 x 0 Dínamo Bucareste (49th) Palmeiras finished 2nd of the Paulista. 17/5/1961 Santos 3 x 2 Bayern 18/5/1961 Santos 1 x 2 La Gantoise 24/5/1961 Santos 2 x 2 Anderlecht 26/5/1961 Santos 4 x 4 Standard Liège (25th) 1/6/1961 Santos 8 x 2 Basel (49th) 3/6/1961 Santos 6 x 3 Wolfsburg 7/6/1961 Santos 6 x 1 Racing de Paris 9/6/1961 Santos 6 x 2 Olympique de Lyon (32nd) 13/6/1961 Santos 5 x 4 Racing de Paris 15/6/1961 Santos 6 x 3 Benfica (20th) 18/6/1961 Santos 2 x 0 Juventus (Not in UEFA ranking but Juventus won a 3rd Serie A in 4 years) 21/6/1961 Santos 5 x 0 Roma (10th) 24/6/1961 Santos 4 x 1 Internazionale (6th) 26/6/1961 Santos 8 x 6 Karlsruhe 28/6/1961 Santos 3 x 0 AEK Atenas 30/6/1961 Santos 3 x 2 Panathinaikos (60th) 4/7/1961 Santos 1 x 2 Olympiakos Paulista was less competitive but still had its top teams performing vs good European sides. 1962 vs 09-10 Standard deviation : 14.489 for Paulista, 18.598 for LaLiga 1/7/1962 Palmeiras 4 x 4 Milan (26th) Palmeiras finished 4th of the Paulista. 26/6/1962 Santos 0 x 1 Estrela Vermelha 28/6/1962 Santos 2 x 3 Racing de Paris 19/9/1962 Santos 3 x 2 Benfica (9th) 11/10/1962 Santos 5 x 2 Benfica (9th) 17/10/1962 Santos 5 x 2 Racing de Paris 20/10/1962 Santos 3 x 3 Hamburg (37th) 22/10/1962 Santos 4 x 2 Sheffield Wednesday (58th) Santos performed well, as well as the league being much more competitive than LaLiga. 1963 vs 10-11 Standard deviation : 12.495 for Paulista, 16.769 for LaLiga (Paulista keeps getting more competitive, while LaLiga's downgrading) 25/1/1963 Palmeiras 2 x 1 Budapeste Vasas (41st) 5/6/1963 Palmeiras 3 x 2 Standard Liège (21st) 13/6/1963 Palmeiras 1 x 1 Internazionale (15th) 15/6/1963 Palmeiras 3 x 1 Fiorentina (11th) Palmeiras finished 1st of the Paulista. 25/5/1963 Santos 1 x 1 Partizan 2/6/1963 Santos 2 x 1 Schalke 04 (60th) 5/6/1963 Santos 5 x 2 Eintracht Frankfurt (34th) 8/6/1963 Santos 3 x 1 Stuttgart 12/6/1963 Santos 0 x 2 Barcelona (2nd) 15/6/1963 Santos 4 x 3 Roma (4th) 19/6/1963 Santos 0 x 2 Internazionale (15th) 22/6/1963 Santos 0 x 4 Milan (29th) 26/6/1963 Santos 3 x 5 Juventus (35th) 16/10/1963 Santos 2 x 4 Milan (29th) 14/11/1963 Santos 4 x 2 Milan (29th) 16/11/1963 Santos 1 x 0 Milan (29th) Santos finished 3rd. 18/8/1963 São Paulo 2 x 1 Porto (95th) 23/8/1963 São Paulo 2 x 1 Real Madrid (1st) 28/8/1963 São Paulo 0 x 0 Real Madrid (1st) Sao Paulo finished 2nd. On top of being a more competitive league, Paulista's top teams had very good results vs the best European sides. 1964 vs 11-12 Standard deviation : 11.990 for Paulista, 16.743 for LaLiga 19/1/1964 São Paulo 2 x 1 Slovan Bratislava (27th) 2/2/1964 São Paulo 1 x 3 Partizan (86th) 9/5/1964 São Paulo 2 x 0 Dukla Praga (15th) 14/5/1964 São Paulo 3 x 1 Borussia Dortmund (72nd) 22/5/1964 São Paulo 0 x 0 Anderlecht (86th) 26/5/1964 São Paulo 3 x 0 Nîmes Olympique 30/5/1964 São Paulo 2 x 0 Karlsruher 3/6/1964 São Paulo 1 x 1 Valenciennes 16/6/1964 São Paulo 1 x 1 Duisburg 18/6/1964 São Paulo 2 x 1 Fiorentina (17th) 20/6/1964 São Paulo 1 x 0 Zenit 24/6/1964 São Paulo 1 x 0 Milan (19th) Sao Paulo finished 5th. 16/6/1964 Santos 1 x 3 Borussia Mönchengladbach (124th) 18/6/1964 Santos 1 x 1 Stade de Reims (39th) 21/6/1964 Santos 4 x 3 Saint-Étienne (124th) 24/6/1964 Santos 2 x 1 Borussia Mönchengladbach (124th) Santos finished first. Same comment as before. 1965 vs 12-13 Standard deviation : 17.029 for Paulista, 17.749 for LaLiga 11/6/1965 Santos 1 x 1 Milan (14th) 3/7/1965 Santos 0 x 1 Milan (14th) 16/11/1965 Corinthians 0 x 2 Arsenal (146th) Same comment as before, although these teams performed a bit worse. 1966 vs 13-14 Standard deviation : 11.728 for Paulista, 18.287 for LaLiga 18/5/1966 Corinthians 5 x 0 Zurich (112th) 25/5/1966 Corinthians 3 x 2 Lazio 29/5/1966 Corinthians 3 x 1 Internazionale (6th) 1/6/1966 Corinthians 1 x 1 Espanyol (55th) 3/9/1966 Corinthians 1 (2) x 1 (3) Real Madrid (3rd) 4/9/1966 Corinthians 0 x 2 Real Zaragoza (7th) 21/8/1966 Santos 4 x 0 Benfica (1st) 24/8/1966 Santos 1 x 0 AEK Atenas (79th) 5/9/1966 Santos 4 x 1 Internazionale (6th) Same comment as before. 1967 vs 14-15 Standard deviation : 12.637 for Paulista, 20.979 for LaLiga 10/2/1967 Santos 2 x 2 Vasas (59th) 13/6/1967 Santos 5 x 4 Munchen 1860 (21st) 17/6/1967 Santos 2 x 1 Mantova 20/6/1967 Santos 1 x 0 Venezea 24/6/1967 Santos 5 x 1 Lecce 27/6/1967 Santos 1 x 1 Fiorentina (34th) 29/6/1967 Santos 3 x 1 Roma (20th) 26/8/1967 Santos 0 x 1 Internazionale (5th) 28/8/1967 Santos 1 x 4 Espanyol 29/8/1967 Santos 2 x 1 Málaga Santos finished 2nd. Same comment as before 1968 vs 15-16 Standard deviation : 10.809 for Paulista, 18.103 for LaLiga 23/1/1968 Santos 4 x 0 Vasas 9/6/1968 Santos 2 x 1 Cagliari 12/6/1968 Santos 2 x 0 Alessandria 15/6/1968 Santos 4 x 5 Zurich 21/6/1968 Santos 4 x 2 Napoli (58th) 26/6/1968 Santos 6 x 2 Napoli (58th) 28/6/1968 Santos 5 x 2 Napoli (58th) 18/8/1968 Santos 4 x 2 Benfica (3rd) 1/9/1968 Santos 3 x 3 Benfica (3rd) 25/1/1968 São Paulo 3 x 2 Benfica (3rd) Same comment, but I'll add some results from after : 1/2/1969 Corinthians 1 x 1 Dínamo Moscou 4/2/1969 Corinthians 1 x 2 Estrela Vermelha 16/8/1969 Corinthians 1 x 0 Málaga 17/8/1969 Corinthians 2 x 1 Barcelona (18th) 24/8/1969 Corinthians 2 x 0 Deportivo Mallorca 26/8/1969 Corinthians 0 x 1 Casertana 16/1/1969 Palmeiras 5 x 0 Rapid Viena (23rd) 21/1/1969 Palmeiras 0 x 0 Slovan Bratislava 21/8/1969 Palmeiras 2 x 1 Dínamo Bucareste 24/8/1969 Palmeiras 2 x 0 Ternana 30/8/1969 Palmeiras 1 (2) x (1) 1 Atlético de Madrid (2nd) 31/8/1969 Palmeiras 2 x 0 Real Madrid (4th) 6/9/1969 Palmeiras 2 x 1 Barcelona (18th) 24/6/1969 Santos 1 x 0 Internazionale (25th) 17/9/1969 Santos 3 x 1 Atlético de Madrid (2nd) Here's an overall table of the data we've seen (standard deviation) : We can see that on average, Paulista has a lower average standard deviation, which means mathematically that the league is less unbalanced than the LaLiga during Messi and Ronaldo. Another good way to compare is to see how Messi and Ronaldo's teams performed against top 10 UEFA coefficient teams compared to some Brazil clubs. Here is therefore the winrate of some Brazil clubs against UEFA top 10 in those years: Santos - 13 wins in 20 games ~ 65% Corinthians - 2 wins in 5 games ~ 40% (low sample) Sao Paulo - 1 win in 2 games ~ 50% (low sample) Palmeiras - 2 wins in 2 games ~ 100% (low sample) Combined - 18 wins in 29 games ~ 62.1% . Messi's team - 22 wins in 57 games ~ 38.6% Messi's team from 2004 to 2016 - 15 wins in 38 games ~ 39.5% Ronaldo's team - 29 wins in 58 games ~ 50% Ronaldo's team from 2004 to 2016 - 16 wins in 34 games ~ 47.1% Messi's team from 2004 to 2016 (Barcelona) performed much worse than the Paulista clubs, while playing on average in a more unbalanced league and overall less competitive. How does that make Paulista a farmers league? Overall, Paulista clubs against European clubs from 1955 to 1975 have an incredible record: 267 games 165 wins (61.8%) 49 draws (18.4%) 53 losses (19.9%) Overall, Brasilian clubs against European clubs in that period: 705 games 404 wins (57.3%) 133 draws (18.9%) 168 losses (23.8%) We all know how good was the Brazil national team in that era, 3 World Cups namely. We can take a look at every player who earned a cap for the national team and look at where did those players play. In 1957, 18 of the 45 players who played atleast one game were playing in Paulista. 6 of them were playing in Corinthians, 5 in Sao Paulo, 1 in Portuguesa, 5 in Santos and 1 in Palmeiras, they were playing in 5 different clubs of the Paulista. In 1958, 10 of the 24 players who played atleast one game were playing in the Paulista. 3 of them were playing in Corinthians, 4 in Sao Paulo, 1 in Portuguesa, 2 in Santos, they were playing in 4 different clubs. In 1959, 13 of the 39 players were in the Paulista. 1 in Corinthians, 5 in Palmeiras, 3 in Sao Paulo, 3 in Santos and 1 in Portuguesa. In 1960, 19 of the 48 players were in the Paulista. 2 in Corinthians, 6 in Palmeiras, 3 in Sao Paulo, 7 in Santos, 1 in Portuguesa. In 1961, 13 of the 26 players were in the Paulista. 3 in Corinthians, 4 in Palmeiras, 1 in Sao Paulo, 5 in Santos. In 1962, 13 of the 23 players were in the Paulista. 8 in Santos, 3 in Palmeiras, 2 in Sao Paulo. In 1963, 23 of the 42 players were in the Paulista. 11 in Santos, 4 in Corinthians, 2 in Sao Paulo, 2 in Palmeiras, 2 in Comercial. In 1964, 6 of the 14 players were in the Paulista. 3 in Santos, 2 in Palmeiras, 1 in Sao Paulo. In 1965, 25 of the 32 players were in the Paulista. 12 in Palmeiras, 3 in Portuguesa, 3 in Sao Paulo, 5 in Santos, 2 in Corinthians. In 1966, 22 of the 54 players were in the Paulista. 7 in Santos, 5 in Sao Paulo, 5 in Palmeiras, 4 in Corinthians and 1 in Portuguesa. In 1967, 3 of the 24 players were in the Paulista. 2 in Sao Paulo, 1 in Portuguesa. In 1968, 18 of the 49 players were in the Paulista. 8 in Santos, 3 in Sao Paulo, 3 in Palmeiras, 4 in Corinthians. In 1969, 9 of the 15 players were in the Paulista. 8 in Santos, 1 in Sao Paulo. In 1970, 10 of the 24 players were in the Paulista. 2 in Palmeiras, 2 in Corinthians, 5 in Santos, 1 in Sao Paulo. Overall: Before 1966 (year at which Pelé started to have worse statistics), 140 of the 293 times where a player played atleast once in a calendar year with the national team were playing in the Paulista (around 48%). Rougly half of the greatest Brazilian players of that era were in the Paulista. Among them, 21 were playing in Corinthians (15%), 24 in Sao Paulo (17%), 7 in Portuguesa (0.05%), 49 in Santos (35%), 35 in Palmeiras (25%), 2 in Comercial (0.01%). To compare, in 2010, 30% of Spanish players who had a cap for the national team and were playing in LaLiga were playing in Barcelona. The myth of Santos being a superteam among the other teams in the Paulista is fluke, and if it was a so-called superteam then Messi's Barça and Ronaldo's Real Madrid definitely were. This is another thing I found (credits to Trachta10), we can see that both Messi and Pelé had a similar ratio of goals / shots on target, which could suggest that the level of goalkeepers back then were similar to nowadays. Another criticism is that Santos and the Paulista were high-scoring team / league. A more high-scoring league doesn't mean its level was worse. In 1963, LaLiga was considered to be the best European league by clubelo (https://archive.ph/qtlyL). From 1955/56 (first Champions League) to 1962/63, LaLiga averaged a number of 3.010 goals per game. During Pelé's career (1957-1974), the Paulista averaged 2.941 goals per game. Before 1970 (where a huge downgrade in terms of goalscoring in the Paulista happened), the league averaged 3.260 goals per game, or a difference of only .250 goals per game compared to LaLiga. If we compare his offensive output as a ratio of his team's goals scored to those of Messi and Ronaldo: Pelé 1957-1965: 461 goals and 189 assists, his team scored 1160 goals Contribution : 56.03% (39.7% goals only) Messi 2009/10-2017/18: 471 goals and 179 assists, his team scored 1247 goals Contribution : 52.12% (37.8% goals only) Ronaldo With Real Madrid 450 goals and 120 assists, his team scored 1167 goals Contribution : 48.84% (38.6% goals only) The stats are self-explanatory. What's more, one of the main reasons of this high goal ratio by Santos was Pelé himself. Season GF/game GF/GF+GA 1950 2.136 58.02% 1951 2.464 63.30% 1952 2.067 57.41% 1953 2.143 53.57% 1954 2.692 61.95% 1955 2.731 63.96% 1956 2.722 73.13% 1957 3.892 68.90% 1958 3.763 78.14% 1959 3.780 72.77% 1960 2.941 69.44% 1961 3.767 77.40% 1962 3.500 78.95% 1963 2.300 57.02% 1964 3.167 66.90% 1965 3.100 76.86% GF/game is the number of goals scored by Santos per game in the Paulista GF/GF+GA is the proportion of goals scored by Santos by total number of goals in games Santos played in Paulista (goals for / goals for + goals against). Santos' goalscoring increased heavily in 1957, when Pelé made his debut, froom 2.722 goals per game to 3.892. The share of goals for (basically showing the domination of the team) also increased from 1956 and was almost consistently over 70% in the next season. We can observe a sharp decrease in 1963, when Pelé played only 19 games out of 30. Another criticism is that after 1970, his goalscoring went downhill when Santos became a worse team than before, which would eventually mean that Pelé is a product of a superteam, nothing more. Season Goals per game in the Paulista 1957 3.674 1958 3.497 1959 3.546 1960 3.426 1961 3.658 1962 3.417 1963 3.188 1964 3.071 1965 3.046 1966 3.281 1967 2.890 1968 2.901 1969 2.782 1970 2.351 1971 2.066 1972 2.152 1973 2.019 1974 1.981 The decrease in goals per game was general in the league. Furthermore, by 1970, Pelé had already played 920 games including non-official games, which would be a game every 5 days roughly. This high number of games played, the short rest period between each, all that in a period that lasted 13 years with worse medical facilities and less substitutes than nowadays would only facilitate a decline for the player. Within that timeframe, played roughly the same number of games as Ibrahimovic, Romario or Figo in their whole career. So obviously, at some point, the player must decrease. What's more, decrease in goalscoring happen for every player at some point of their career. Messi with PSG, CR7 with Juventus-Man United, Zico with Flamengo at the end of his career... Another criticism is that Pelé's teammates (Coutinho, Toninho) also had incredible numbers. Again, this happens with every player. Eto'o outscored Messi in 2008/09 LaLiga, Higuain outscored Ronaldo in 2009/10 LaLiga, Higuain and Benzema both had more than 20 league goals in 2011/12, Suarez outscored Messi in 2015/16 and Neymar & Benzema both had more than 20 league goals that season, Suarez had 29 league goals, 25 in 2017/18 etc...
Not to disrespect Pelé but it seems just improbable the league was as competitive as Spain in the 2010s. Even though the financial crash of 2008 did have a numbing effect on the teams below the top two or top three (David Silva and David Villa leaving Valencia was a direct result of this, and there was more). Spain could attract all the best players in the world, including foreigners. Even some of the hottest Premier League goodies went to Spain. Vice versa, the hottest goodies below the Spanish top two/three went sometimes to the Premier League, to Bayern Munich etc. Spain had also almost a three to four times higher population. 47 million vs 12.5 million inhabitants for the Sao Paulo state in 1960 (with a high percentage below 10 years old and a very high infant mortality rate). That's quite a difference. Nothing is impossible but it is really big and historically few countries in history (if not none) can bridge such gap in population. Finally, while Santos and some other teams had a full-time professional status, up there with the frontier of the entire world, it is also true Pelé was playing against amateurs and not every club team was 100% professional with likewise facilities.
It mathematically is... It's not based on an opinion. The difference is that Brasilian clubs back then didn't have to attract other players because they were incredible by themselves with Brasilian players. While a league like LaLiga almost needs other talents to be a good league. Population isn't a major factor to see whether a country is good at football or not, especially for a country that loves football that much. Paulista is a professional league since 1933 and from what I've understood every player must be professional since that date. Eitherway, whether the league was professional or not doesn't matter and doesn't change the level of the league. Austrian league is fully professional since 1924, with that logic Bican played against better opponents than Pelé.
Peak Ronaldo or Messi were never outscored when they were the focal point of the attack playing for Madrid/barcelona Messi was a winger in 2008/09 He was not outscored in all competitions either Luis Suarez 2015/16 did outscore Messi in all competitions including La Liga Messi then with the profile of an attacking midfielder But it wasn’t just Messi he outscored but every other professional player on planet earth. Suárez is maybe the best CF of his generation Maybe he isn’t but he is unquestionably in the conversation That’s the least we can say about him You’d have to sell that Toninho in his generation was anywhere near what Suarez was in his. Neymar is the top scorer in the entire history of the Brazilian NT Toninho was uncapped for the Brazilian NT You are comparing apples with cannellini beans Cristiano was not the focal point of real Madrid’s attack in 2009/10,he was injured almost 2 months and had 2 red card suspensions He was not outscored by higuain in all competitions either(not even close) even though Toninho did that to Pele Cristiano is who is he is but not superhuman Don’t forget higuain is the one with the most goals ever in a single Serie A season Higuain the league CF is not Higuain the one who represented the Argentine NT Even with his high profile misses in major tournaments he was still a lot better then Aguero ever was for Argentina This guy here also needs to be investigated Geraldo Manteiga his full name but can’t find his career statistics anywhere is he another uncapped Brazilian player? Pele in the paulista between 1966 and 1974 On the left is games played and on the right is goals scored His best season after the age of 25
Pelé neither was outscored by other teammates during his prime and when he was the focal point of the attack. Toninho outscored him in 1966 and 1968 where he was scoring already much less. In 1968, Toninho scored 58 of his 77 goals in unofficial games/competitions. 19 goals in the Paulista. 19 goals in Paulista is less than any Pelé's season pre-1966. While Suarez in 15/16 for example outscored every single Messi season besides 2011/12 and 2012/13 (all comps), in league he outscored him every season besides 2011/12, 2012/13 and 2014/15. No Pelé's teammate ever had a season WITH HIM as a starter in the same season that outscores almost every of his other seasons. While from what I remember Santos mainly played in a 4-2-4 line-up which would only favor the 2nd striker considering Pelé's role to have a very high scoring. Toninho also proved to be a good goalscorer with Sao Paulo, with 59 goals in 2 years. And Coutinho was also easily among the best forwards of his time. Toninho had only one cap because Brasil national team was stacked as ********, while today's national team has dropped so much in terms of number of talents. That's for a fact. Ronaldo played more minutes than Higuain in the 2009/10 LaLiga season, and got outscored even though he was taking penalties. Taking all competitions and comparing both things just makes no sense in this scenario. Toninho scored 75% of his goals in friendly tournaments. He only outscored Pelé by 2 goals in the Paulista. Few sources share his stats: https://www.ogol.com.br/jogador/geraldao/229197 182 games for 78 goals including 43 in 124 with Corinthians https://botafogofutebolsa.com.br/geraldaohall/ 88 goals for Botafogo. Don't know how many games, don't know whether it counts friendlies It seems with his total stats that this season was just a breakout season, his peak season. Having a "random" (because he's random to today's eyes but who knows, at this period he might have been known as an average striker) player leading the topscorer table doesn't prove anything. Ballesta in 99/00 LaLiga (4 caps all time in a Spanish national team that was nowhere near to be stacked as much as Brazil national team) or Guiza in 07/08 LaLiga. In 2001/02 Hubner (no appearance for national team) was topscorer of the Serie A. In 1995/96, Igor Protti (no appearance for national team) was Serie A topscorer. See how easy it is to discredit a league because "no-names" played good in it at some point? In 1966 he got injured and by that date he'd already played (in terms of games, 645 games including non officials) the equivalent of Baggio's career, so obviously at some point he'll decline. He's not a superhero. And after 1970, his goalscoring also decreased because of a general goalscoring decrease in the Paulista. That best season that you seem to minimize, when 26 goals in a Paulista season has only been beaten 4 times from 1970 to 1996.
The Brazil national team didn't only rely on Paulista players. So it was not incredible by itself. Brazilian clubs would have signed foreigners if they had the money and opportunity, but they didn't and couldn't. The rumor was always about Pele and folks moving to Europe, not the other way around. We are talking here about a GDP per capita of less than 2000 dollars (if we are generous), only 12 million people, a considerable malnutrition rate and an insanely high mortality rate for people under the age of 5 and age of 10. It was a dumpster fire and basket case of a country. Argentina was already way more advanced. Population is a major factor. Not the only factor but it is a major one. Wealth is another one. The Sao Paulo state wasn't wealthy. Not wealthy enough for sustaining a full professional league of 16-18 teams. Or making sure all the talent can make it. Not true. If a few teams are full-time professional and others are not, it makes a huge difference. Players of that time speak about cannonballs being fired once a team turns professional. Austria was actually very good around that time. Both the league (Mitropa Cup) and the national team. It was wealthy, with a way lower mortality rate (which means a huge amount of talent is wasted and a wider bell curve). I wouldn't rule out that comparatively speaking Bican played against as good and well-equiped opponents (as far as the local national league is concerned), with more equal facilities. But I don't judge him by what he did against the average or poor opponents either...
Just for fun I searched through some leagues goalscorers since the 1980s: Serie A Roberto Pruzzo : topscorer three times in the 1980s. Only played 6 games with the Italian NT Pietro Paolo Virdis : topscorer once in 1986/87. Uncapped. Giuseppe Signori : topscorer 3 times between 1992 and 1996. "Only" 28 caps, pretty low for a player of this caliber. By comparison, Vardy had 26 caps. Dario Hübner : tied topscorer in 2001/02. Uncapped. Cristiano Lucarelli : topscorer in 2004/05. Only 6 caps. Igor Protti : Topscorer in 1996. Uncapped Bundesliga Roland Wohlfarth : topscorer twice in 1989 and 1991. 2 caps only. Heiko Herrlich : topscorer in 1995. Only 5 caps. Michael Preetz : Topscorer in 1999. Only 7 caps. Martin Max : topscorer twice in 2000 and 2002. 1 cap. Thomas Christiansen : topscorer in 2003. 2 caps. Ailton : topscorer in 2004. Uncapped Grafite : topscorer in 2009. 4 caps. Stefan Kießling : Topscorer in 2013. 6 caps. Alexander Meier : topscorer in 2015. Uncapped. Premier League Dion Dublin & Chris Sutton : tied topscorers in 1997/98. Respectively 4 and 1 caps. Kevin Phillips : topscorer in 2000. 8 caps. Marcus Stewart : 2nd topscorer in 2001. Uncapped. James Beattie : 3rd topscorer in 2003 (23 goals). 5 caps. Andrew Johnson : 2nd topscorer in 2005 (21 goals). Uncapped. Was supposed to be the best league, most competitive in the world / all-time in that period. LaLiga Baltazar : topscorer in 1989. 6 caps. Salva Ballesta : topscorer in 2000. 4 caps. It's easy to make a league seem banter because at some point a no-name had a breakout season and became topscorer. No-sense.
I could be mistaken, but isn't the career of Jose Altafini one way of comparing the relative strength of Campeonato Paulista and the European domestic leagues of that era? His wikipedia page says he played two seasons (1956, 1957), but I could only find his record for the 1957 season when he finished with 17 goals as the second highest top scorer of the league behind Pele. Are there any sources of his overall Campeonato Paulista records?
Before 1966 (year at which Pelé started to have worse statistics), 140 of the 293 times where a player played atleast once in a calendar year with the national team were playing in the Paulista (around 48%). Rougly half of the greatest Brazilian players of that era were in the Paulista. Among them, 21 were playing in Corinthians (15%), 24 in Sao Paulo (17%), 7 in Portuguesa (0.05%), 49 in Santos (35%), 35 in Palmeiras (25%), 2 in Comercial (0.01%). To compare, in 2010, 30% of Spanish players who had a cap for the national team and were playing in LaLiga were playing in Barcelona. Brasil has a GDP per capita of 7-8k$ in the last years, yet it's still the country with the most talents. It's for example the country that exports the most player abroad. https://football-observatory.com/Exporting-countries-Brazil-and-France-head-the ahead of France, which is a way more developed country in all the domains you cited. The thing that matters is the passion of football, France isn't that of a footballing country, especially when compared to Brasil. The population again doesn't matter, in the last years Croatia has one of the best national team yet it has barely 4 millions people in it. Uruguay won 2 World Cups while having a population of around 1.5-2 millions inhabitants, with most of them playing in the Uruguayan league. Later you're saying Austria was one of the best league. In 1937, it had lower GDP per capita than the UK, the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, France, Argentina, Chile to name some. That doesn't restrict it to be a good league, and better than those. Again, from what I've seen, Paulista is fully professional since 1933. Please give an evidence that Paulista in the 1960s still had amateur clubs. Fairs then, Austrian national team was although not close to dominating the same way Brazil did during Pelé's era. Bican played few seasons in lower divisions too.
French Wiki seems to have his stats. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_Altafini 91 goals in 144 games in Brazil (0.63) 228 goals in 504 games in Italy (0.45) Though, he went from the Paulista with around 3.7 goals per game on average in the period he was there, to the Serie A who averaged 2.2 goals per game on average in the period he played there. Roughly speaking, his goalscoring was better when playing in Italy than when playing in Paulista compared to the standards of the league. The number of goals per game isn't an indicator itself but how the attacker scores compared to the league's scoring and whether it fluctuates is a good indicator. Plus we have Rivaldo in the 1990s whose goalscoring went up when going from Brazil to LaLiga while the goalscoring was similar (2.61 goals per game in the Paulista when he played there, vs 2.71 in Spain)
Pelé in Paulista 466 goals in 410 games ~ 1.14 Pelé vs European teams 144 goals in 130 games ~ 1.11 Pelé vs the best European teams* 47 goals in 39 games ~ 1.21 *Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico, Valencia, Sevilla, Juventus, Inter, Roma, Napoli, Milan, Lazio, Benfica, Lyon
Paulista teams vs UEFA top 10 teams 1955-1975 Palmeiras 30/08/1969 Palmeiras 1(2) x 1(1) Atletico de Madrid (#2) 31/08/1969 Palmeiras 2 x 0 Real Madrid (#4) 13/01/1971 Palmeiras 1 x 1 Benfica (#3) 17/06/1972 Palmeiras 1 x 0 Milan (#9) 31/08/1974 Palmeiras 2 x 0 Barcelona (#8) 30/07/1975 Palmeiras 2 x 0 Juventus (#5) 6 games, 5 wins, 1 draw. Santos 05/06/1959 Santos 2 x 3 Inter (#9) 17/06/1959 Santos 3 x 5 Real Madrid (#1) 26/06/1959 Santos 7 x 1 Inter (#9) 29/06/1959 Santos 5 x 1 Barcelona (#2) 07/06/1960 Santos 5 x 3 Reims (#3) 17/06/1960 Santos 3 x 1 Reims (#3) 02/07/1960 Santos 3 x 4 Barcelona (#2) 21/06/1961 Santos 5 x 0 Roma (#10) 24/06/1961 Santos 4 x 1 Inter (#6) 19/09/1962 Santos 3 x 2 Benfica (#9) 11/10/1962 Santos 5 x 2 Benfica (#9) 12/06/1963 Santos 0 x 2 Barcelona (#2) 15/06/1963 Santos 4 x 3 Roma (#4) 21/08/1966 Santos 4 x 0 Benfica (#1) 05/09/1966 Santos 4 x 1 Inter (#6) 26/08/1967 Santos 0 x 1 Inter (#5) 18/08/1968 Santos 4 x 2 Benfica (#3) 01/09/1968 Santos 3 x 3 Benfica (#3) 17/09/1969 Santos 3 x 1 Atletico (#2) 09/06/1970 Santos 0 x 0 Milan (#9) 17/06/1970 Santos 1 x 0 Milan (#9) 01/03/1972 Santos 0 x 0 Anderlecht (#10) 22 games, 14 wins, 3 draws, 5 losses. Corinthians 20/05/1959 Corinthians 2 x 3 Reims (#3) 24/06/1959 Corinthians 5 x 3 Barcelona (#2) 29/05/1966 Corinthians 3 x 1 Inter (#6) 03/09/1966 Corinthians 1(2) x 1(3) Real Madrid (#3) 04/09/1966 Corinthians 0 x 2 Zaragoza (#7) 5 games, 2 wins, 3 losses. Sao Paulo 23/08/1963 Sao Paulo 2 x 1 Real Madrid (#1) 28/08/1963 Sao Paulo 0 x 0 Real Madrid (#1) 25/01/1968 Sao Paulo 3 x 2 Benfica (#3) 24/08/1969 Sao Paulo 2 x 1 Real Madrid (#4) 4 games, 3 wins, 1 draw. Total Paulista teams vs UEFA top 10 37 games 24 wins (65%) 5 draws 8 losses Real Madrid 2009/10 - 2017/18 against UEFA top 10 58 games 29 wins (50%) 16 draws 13 losses The BEST team in the Champions League in recent times is worse than the top 4 Paulista clubs* agains top 10 UEFA clubs. *Palmeiras finished 11th in 1968 Paulista, Sao Paulo finished 8th in 1960 (outside the top 4 on 5 other occasions until 1974), Corinthians finished 9th in 1963, 7th in 1961 and 5th in 1959.
Just to address the assertion that Messi was winger in 2008/09. Messi's role already evolved from being a winger to a false nine (even if not completely accomplished) in this season, as we can see on his dribbling map.
I looked at https://elofootball.com and only 7 of those 39 games were against teams with 2100+ rating but what I discovered after is even more impressive: Pelé vs European teams with 2100+ elo rating Real Madrid 58/59 (elo 2210 2nd on European rank) 1 goal Barcelona 58/59 (elo 2249 1st in europe) 2 goals Juventus 59/60 (elo 2116 3rd in europe) 1 goal Barcelona 59/60 (2235 2nd) 1 goal Benfica 60/61 (2148 2nd) 2 goals Milan 63/64 (2107 4th) 2 goals Inter 66/67 (2103 2nd) 1 goal Overall: 7 games and 10 goals Average: 1,42 goals per game Average opposition: 2166 elo Seemingly Pelé statpadded against everyone
Some players and stats in Brazil / outside Brazil Vava In Brazil : 262 league goals in 598 games (0.44) In Spain : 31 league goals in 71 games (0.44) Average goals per game in Paulista during his time in Brazil : 3.612 Average goals per game in LaLiga during his time in Spain : 3.019 Goal ratio / goals per game in league in Brazil : 12.18% Goal ratio / goals per game in league in Spain : 14.57% José Altafini In Brazil : 91 league goals in 144 games (0.63) In Italy : 228 league goals in 504 games (0.45) Average goals per game in Paulista during his time in Brazil : 3.684 Average goals per game in Italy during his time in Italy : 2.215 Same ratio as ahead in Brazil : 17.11% Same ratio as ahead in Italy : 20.32% Evaristo In Brazil : 56 league goals in 103 games (0.54) In Spain : 82 league goals in 131 games (0.63) Average goals per game in Carioca during his time there : 3.723 Average goals per game in Spain during his time there : 2.868 Same ratio as ahead in Brazil : 14.50% Same ratio as ahead in Spain : 21.97% Luís Vinício In Brazil : 24 league goals in 42 games (0.57) In Italy : 155 league goals in 348 league games (0.45) Average goals per game in Carioca during his time there : 3.703 Average goals per game in Serie A during his time there : 2.460 Same ratio as ahead in Brazil : 15.39% Same ratio as ahead in Italy : 18.29% It's strange that almost every attacker who goes from Brazil to Spain or Italy (those 2 were known as the best leagues in Europe at that time) sees his goalscoring (compared to the league's standards) increased.
Wouldn't it be correct to evaluate Real Madrid at 59-72 against the top 10 instead of the current one? And I personally prefer the elo rating more than the uefa coefficient
I also prefer the elo but didn't know about https://elofootball.com before you posted it here. I'll give it a try tomorrow and I'll count Real Madrid's performances vs UEFA top 10 tomorrow too.
His heatmap is meaningless because that's just how many of his touches were in those areas, what is more interesting is where his efficient touches (i.e. dribbles for example) placed and you can clearly see he was a central player although still playing a bit on the side
Some Brazilians who moved to Europe during the era of Pele(including cross generational players too) Will only be taking into account their statistics up to the age of 27-30 (strikers generally declined after this) A player like ferenc Puskás was an exception and not the rule Jose altafini Born in 1938 José Altafini - Wikipedia Palmeiras 1956-1958 0.78 gpg Milan 1958-1965 0.58 gpg Julinho Born in 1929 Julinho (footballer, born 1929) - Wikipedia Portuguesa 1951-1953 0.58 gpg Fiorentina 1955-1958 0.24 gpg Was 29 years old in 1958 Amarildo Born in 1939 Botafogo 1958-1963 0.53 Milan 1963-1967 0.30 Fiorentina 1967-1970 0.25 Was 31 years old at the end of 1970 Amarildo (footballer, born 1939) - Wikipedia Emanuele Del Vecchio Born in 1934 Santos 1954-1957 0.58 gpg Verona 1957-1958 0.48 gpg Napoli 1959-1961 0.40 gpg Padova 1961/62 0.38 gpg Milan 1962 0.30 gpg Padova 1962/1963 0 gpg Was 29 at the end of 1963 He moves back to Brazil in 1964(aged 30) and between 1964 and 1967 scores at a rate of almost 1 in 2(0.48) Emanuele Del Vecchio - Wikipedia Humberto Tozzi Born in 1934 According the Portuguese Wikipedia he scored 126 goals in 135 appearances for São Cristóvão between 1953 and 1956 0.93 gpg Humberto Tozzi – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre According to the English wiki he scored 32 goals in 92 appearances for lazio between 1960-1963 0.34 gpg Humberto Tozzi - Wikipedia Vava is a bit of a strange one He scored at a higher rate than Pele in world cups too Pele seemed to think vava was as good as cristiano Ronaldo If I find the quote I will post it But then Pele also use to think one of his childhood santos idols was 10x better than Neymar https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...core-headers-Vasconcelos-10-times-better.html unrelated tangents aside the fact remains that when you apply logic and common sense to this it wasn’t all roses for the Brazilian players who left for Europe in the 50s and 60s alot of those statistics you include also include the decline periods of those players To me that is deceptive but maybe unintentionally on your part. Pele had a lot going for him anyways no one can deny that. One of the all time greats undoubtably I think this is the wrong route though For the entirety of pre Messi/Ronaldo era it was Pele the forward/striker vs Maradona the playmaker Only When Lionel Messi started registering peak Pele goalscoring statistics from a position not too dissimilar from Diego Maradona Then all of a sudden Pele became a playmaker who then became a defender and then finally his final metamorphosis into a goalkeeper.