We've seen Victorine in the last friendly. I think the BigSoccer jury is still out on Victorine at right back, but as I've posted before, this will come to nothing. Now we've got Convey at left back possibly, or maybe Bruce was just filling a hole. I like the Convey experiment much better, but the question is whether either of these guys can defend well enough? Are they fast enough? So Bruce likes good offensive options at outside back, but I don't think Victorine brings much in this area that others can't at least match, and the guy doesn't seem to have a clue about his position. He never looked good at Forward for the Galaxy. At least Sanneh can play Forward. I'd rather see spastic Olsen played at right back.
why can't defenders play defense? leave Olsen on the wing. test Suarez at RB. I think he could do better than Victorine
which is fine against Canada and El Salvador or if you have players like Sanneh or Hedjuk (when he's playing well) at outside backs but Olsen or Victorine wouldn't cut it against Argentine attackers regardless of their midfield abilities. They'd struggle against Jamaican wingers.
he wants his backs to be able to go upfield and be able attack like a midfielder. He also wants his Wide Mid's to be able to go back and defend like a defender. The best way to do that is find midfielders who can play both offense and defense (John O'Brien, DaMarcus Beasly). From reports apparently Bobby Convey played pretty well defensivly also. I think Steve Cherundolo will be the answer as a RB. Unfortunatly he never got a good R-Mid to partner with. Ernie Stewart is not a Midfielder, but rather a forward. And he plays like that to. The system allows for alot of flexibility. We can throw 8 people in the attack or we can defend with 7 - 8. If you have all out defenders playing as your backs then you lose that versatility. Argentina will be a huge test for Convey and DMB. If they can pass it, then we're set in that side for a long time. The Right-Side is a different matter. We're all sitting here praying that Ben Olsen's rather fragile ankles hold up for 4 more years and that Cherundolo will continue to improve.
Yes, but Bruce doesn't play 4 across the midfield either. Realistically Earnie was the floating midfielder even though he was out right. If we play with players like Olsen and Lewis in the midfield we will have a very classic look, but its too early to tell how Arena feels about this next group. Arena seems to like a 3-5-2 and a 4-4-2, but neither are exactly typical and Arena is fond of unbalanced formations.
This thread is great, because it merely cements what I have been saying for months.....Reyna and O'Brien as wing backs. Both are excellent defenders and move up the field very well. Imagine having Reyna and O'Brien overlapping with Olsen and Beasley respectively. There would be high quality crosses and some excellent interplay in that scenario.
Man, the more things change, the more they really stay the same..... Here we are again, struggling to find wingbacks, having an excess of midfielders and marking defenders. 352 anybody? With a healthy Olsen and an ever-improving Beasley, we do now have the perfect high work rate two way outside players to take up the wide spots in a 352 and could easily fall back into a 532 when needed. Roll out Sanneh Pope and Boca across the back. O'Brien and Pablo in the middle behind Mathis with Donovan and McBride up front could be a strong team for the Confederations Cup this Summer ....Donovan McBride ............Mathis .......O'Brien Pablo Beasley.............Olsen ......Boca Pope Sanneh ............Friedel I'd be happy.
Victorine can't defend? Maybe you should ask Steve Ralston about that. He shut Ralston down in the second half of MLS Cup. Maybe you should ask his coach about that, since obviously he decided Sasha was the man to mark Ralston (in the championship game no less), and even put him into a de facto left back position to do so. And can't get forward? When he's given up more goals than he's scored, come back and maybe we'll talk. Argentina will be a test, for Sasha and for others, but we'll reassess after that point. If Suarez is ahead of Victorine, then why hasn't he played yet? I mean, why would Bruce move another player theoretically out of position when he had the perfect candidate in camp? I like Suarez, but Bruce seems to think he's a tweener, and doesn't quite know where to play him. He may be, in Bruce's view, more a candidate for an inside position than an outside one. Will Gooch Onyewu be ready soon? If there's a player coming up that could crack the lineup at this position, it's Onyewu. I would put money on him way before I put money on Cherundolo. The left side to me seems to be the interesting one. Barrett could play solidly at this level. I can't believe someone is questioning Convey's speed. And again, if Bruce were not serious about this, why would he put Convey out there AGAIN!! Could someone tell me whether he's played more minutes in the midfield or at left back for the Nats? It's got to be close. Still, we need to wait and see if Chris Gbandi recovers, because that will stir things up. And with all these rather appetizing options, especially compared to the Regis-or-who choices of years past, I don't think we'll see JOB or a 32 y.o. Reyna playing outside back. Maybe we ought to play them in the midfield. You know. Where they've proven really successful for us over the years. Yoiu know. Rather than playing our best and most experienced midfield talent at the outside back positions. Crazy idea, I know. It's also true that we may play 3-5-2 eventually, and that would eliminate the need for outside backs.
Isn't Suarez a left back and Victorine a right back? (I can't remember) And hasn't Suarez been continuously picking up injuries just before these friendlies?
Suarez is a righty. Rumored to have been suffering from food poisoning vs. Canada. Was on the bench vs. El Salvador but did not get in the game.
After watching, in person, Claudio Reyna get abused by Ramon Morales until Aguirre shockingly pulled him out in the 28th minute during the World Cup, I have no desire to see Reyna in defense at all. Plus recent reports indicate complications in his rehab and recovery that may push back his return. The US has been very lucky at the number of players that have returned to top form following ACL/MCL type problems. Not everyone makes it all the way back. I hope Claudio does, but we have to plan as if he doesn't.
Apparently Arena feels Suarez doesn't have the offensive skills for right back, but somehow isn't as good as Danny Califf as a centerback? This is puzzling to me. Suarez is quick, tall, strong and good with the ball. Best of all Ryan Suarez has spirit and tenacity that seems to be lacking from many players. This is an intangible that is very critical to team character, and Suarez' emotional fire would be a welcome addition IMO.
Re: Re: The outside back experiment Because this is the year 2003. The old style of defenders defend and attackers attack just doesn't fit anymore. Ronaldo hassled a German defender to set up the first goal of the WC finals.....and he's a forward. Ramelow, a defender for Germany pushed up into the attack on more than a few occasions. This is modern football, and two way skills are required at nearly every position. 11 players attacking, and 11 defending.
Cherundolo Just wanted to get out my 2cents on Cherundolo. He is not as capable as either Beasely or Convery in the midfield. Its hard for me to compare his defensive abilities at this time because of the lack of playing time by Beasely and Convey in the back (I still haven't seen the game against Canada which sounds like not a great test anyway). My choice would be as BA is doing, work on Convey's defensive skills and make him valuable in multiple positions. Since I do not see his club games I cannot say how Cherundolo has been doing recently, but for the USMNT he did not have the skills yet when he moved into the midfield.
Re: Re: Re: The outside back experiment Agreed. And this is an argument for having players who are well-rounded: top athletes (speed, size, strength and durability) with strong ball skills and a strong sense of their position on the field relative to teammates and opposing players. This is one reason I have trouble with the Victorine move. Sasha is slow. He's got a bit of size, but doesn't typically use it to his advantage. I see Suarez and Klein as significantly better athletes - better speed and better sense of how to use their size. Sasha might have a slight edge in ball skills, but not enough to make up for his physical limitations. To boot, his sensibilities are those of a central midfielder, not a wing player. It puzzles me. As for Convey, I believe this is a simple problem where all the proper left back candidates were unavailable.
3-5-2 looks good to me simply put because Mathis would be awesome there. A true target forward paired with Donovan or Wolff and we now have something going. Donovan and Kirovski can play the position as well. The other idea is to have guys like Obrien, Convey, and Reyna as the outside / central mids that stay at home. This means the outside backs, ACM, and two forwards attack while the rest are set for transition. ------------McBride----Donovan ----------------Mathis -------Obrien-----Mastroeni-----Reyna Beasley/Lewis-------------------------Olsen/Klein ----------------Boca------Pope ---------------------Friedel
To make what I was trying to get at a bit clearer, let's take Manchester United as an example. They play something of a cross between a 442 and a 451. They usually play a backline, going across, of: Gary Neville, Wes Brown, Rio Ferdinand, and Silvestre (who should be benched in favor of O'Shea). Roy Keane as the D-Mid, Becks on the right, and either Phillip Neville or Ryan Giggs on the left side. With Van Niestelrooy and Ole Gunnar Sloeskar(sp?) up front. But more often than not OGS will drop back into the midfield, and RVN will play as a lone-striker. How does this connect to the US Nats? I'd bet a pretty penny that Bruce Arena envisions us at our best looking like Man U. These guys love to get wide and send in cross after cross. But it works because both G.Neville and Silves can cross and pass very well. How can any defense contend with 6 midfielders who can pass it with precision, and cross with pin-point accuracy. Take a look at the roster that Man U put out vs Arsenal. Man for Man Arsenal was better, yet Manchester United mase them look silly. To Point: ---GNeville/???? ----Brown/Pope----Rio/Boca--Silves/Convey---- -----------Keane/Mastro--------------------- ---Becks/Olsen--------------Giggs/DMB------- -------------Scholes/Donovan---------------- Do you see the simalarities in the two teams? The talent replicates itself on both squads. It might not be clear but this is what I was trying to get at.
This has been the case several years now (remember the Dutch invented this in the '70's). My point of contention isn't whether defenders should play offense, I agree that they should. My point is that this is not a world of free love and overlapping positions. Yes Ronaldo is strong at marking due to his skill and size, but would you really line him up at a fullback position? You can't play like Hendrix if you can't play a scale. Positional discipline is critical for creativity to flourish. We can sit and speculate on a thousand different lineups and just about anybody in the pool can potentially line up anywhere on the field...but is that logical? Convey is a midfielder, not a defender. He could adjust to playing striker if need be. He's quick and agile and has a nose for the goal. He shouldn't be on the backline. I agree with the opinion that someone like Suarez will line up better as a centerback than at his traditional RB position on the Burn. As for Reyna, he shouldn't be in the back either, even though he's played there professionally. His role on the national team is that of creative midfielder...a playmaker...a no. 10. It's been the lack of defensive fortitude we've had of late that had him playing more defense in the world cup than he should have been. As much as we will continue to see the evolution of "total soccer", there will continue to be roles on the field that need to be filled with those that have the skills to fill them. I'm talking about the ability of a Figo to know where his pass should go before his target even realizes it's coming to him. The ability of a Paolo Maldini to run his opponent down the field, tackle him from behind, take the ball, spin 180 degrees and be on his feet and sprinting back upfield without touching his opponent. We have such players. A team of creative freedom is a team of players filling their roles. Outside backs can make sideline runs and wingers can track back to mark up, as long as each continues to fill his role. I don't believe Victorine has the defensive instict to play at RB. Marking Ralston is a great accomplishment and I'll remember to buy Sasha a round if I see him, but (and all due respect to Steve) Ralston is NOT the same as marking a Pablo Aimar.
Sure, but what good does it do to us to put a destroyer type defender out there who can't contribute to the attack? Basically what we get is what we have now--when the defenders are pressured, they give up the ball. That is hugely dangerous. Otherwise I agree with you. Convey, Reyna and JOB are midfielders, and I don't see how it's optimal for Convey's development to play as a back.
Congratulations for your unique view. To the other 1 billion viewers, Reyna was destroying Morales ( including VS and other Mexicans whop visit these boards).By the way, that was Morales than Reyna dribbled by to set up the first USA goal.
Re: Re: Re: The outside back experiment [sarcasm]Which is why Mathis should never again play for the Nats. [/sarcasm] Let's not go overboard, Wanderer. A team that plays a 4-4-2 and gets zero offensive production from its back 4 is gonna struggle. But there's nothing wrong with relying on one fullback to get forward, but not the other. Or to ask one of the central defenders to have the ability to come forward and hit a killer thru ball, but not the other. Unless you've got Henry Rollins in goal, it's not smart to attack with 11.
I'm not talking about having a flat back four of neanderthals like in the British and German teams of back in the day (although we all know there are certain players out there that need an enforcer type marking them..ahem Roy Keane). I especially don't mean for the outside back positions. I'm talking about the Maldini's and Lizarazu's of the world. The Roberto Carlos' out there that have plenty of offensive output but who never score more goals than they prevent. They are defenders first and formost. Having a guy like that on your side gives your teammates more confidence. They know you're not gonna turnover the ball just because you wanted to try a new move you learned in practice. We need a Michael Jordan, who won countless offensive titles but was never doubted when it came to his defensive stature on the court.