With Argentina's loss over the weekend and Messi's bowing out of the national team after, as he himself said, "I've lost 4 finals and this is not for me" I think it's easy to resurface the old and controversial question of the best ever. I think one of the problems is that the younger generations really have no idea and either never saw or appreciate learning about the older generations. To me personally it doesn't take much time researching or even any controversy if the arguments are based on simple facts. With that, I'd like to have everyone consider a player who: - played in a WC while still 17 years old, progressively becoming a protagonist for the team - in that same WC at 17 scored 6 goals in only 4 matches - is it possible for a player to play actively in 3 WC and be a champion in all 3 (100% record) - at age 29 (Messi's age today and Maradona was 26 when winning WC) was lifting his 3rd WC in 3 played, him being the only common denominator in all 3 There are a lot of statistics that can be brought up but all that's needed are 4 simple irrefutable facts to illustrate a huge difference I'm not looking to start a huge discussion and comparison, I was simply looking at some basic facts of the magnitude of the impact one single player had on not only the national team but the history of football Today on 29 June 1958 Brasil won its first WC with that young 17 year old making his world appearance Happy 58th anniversary Brasil!!
One correction, I apologize... in 62 he was present but got hurt and Amarildo filled his spot... so he was only a significant contributor in 2 WCs of the 4 he participated. But nevertheless he was present in the group.
I really see any person who reckons Maradona or Messi worthy to be compared to Pele as a stupid idiot, football illiterate person. Even if a person combines them both and compare to Pele, Pele will be far ahead. I am not going to refer to statistics or trophies they have won, I just refer to their playing styles, how good they were, how they contributed. Pele did what they both did in a better way than they do and there are many things done by Pele but they can not do. even a combination of Maradona&Messi will not be as complete, versatile, total footballer as Pele. The only criteria in which that two can be worthy opponent to Pele is dribbling but even in that Pele seems to be better than them. just look at this thread: link you will see types of dribblings done by Pele but Messi/Maradona will fail. Pele was a better scorer than them, better attacker, better defencive contributor, better or as good as playmaker, vision was at least as good as theirs if not better. if we consider offencively, the two may have a chance to stand against Pele but when we take defencive side into account, the two will have no chance. Pele was even a good goalkeeper who sometimes played as a goalkeeper. some will share Puyol's quote and Messi's picture as a keeper but we have not been able to examine him in a real match pressure. Messi shone in one of the best teams ever, that team was better even before Messi. Maradona shone in a team that was the equivalent of modern day PSG or Manchester City, they were buying expensive players, and even in that team all that team achieved with Maradona was to be the best in Italy and best in second category in europe. Pele? Shone with a brazilian side and destroyed european teams which were buying more expensive players. if Maradona made that average team the best of Italy, Pele made Santos (even poorer team than Napoli of 80's) the best of the world. and I expect Messi/Maradona fanboys to come up with "Pele did not play in europe thus his quality is poor", I can agree with that fallacy, if that makes Pele worse, then: Pele's teammates were the players who never played in europe, thus Maradona and Messi played with better teammates but Pele achieved what Maradona failed to achieve with better teammates. did Maradona be able to make that 10 players who played in europe the best of the world? but Pele did the 10 brazilians who never played in europe the best team of the world. Your fallacy will give Pele more credit, not take. OR GOING with that absurd fallacy of yours, Brazil58-70 was a poor team, consisted of players who never played in europe, in WCs Maradona and Messi had teammates who played in europe, deducing from your fallacy, Maradona and Messi had better teammates in WCs and ended up failing to do what Pele did. sticking to your fallacy, you must stop saying "in WCs Pele played with the best players", just like Pele almost none of them played in europe. Any person who thinks Messi/Maradona is worthy to be compared to Pele is not worthy to have a dialogue about [Pele's] football with. They either do not understand football or they have not watched Pele (or both) which means they talk about something they do not know. Do not get me wrong, I love the way Messi and Maradona plays, I enjoy them, they are very great footballers but not as good as people overrate them as to be. IF Cruyff was as prolific as Pele, he would have had a case to be opponent of Pele, as of now he has no rival, no opponent. I am not going to talk about their statistics, career and achievements, just their abilities are enough to see how far ahead is Pele. if we talk about all of them, Pele will be far ahead than combination of LM10+DM10 at 17, were Maradona and Messi a regular bench player? we are not sure. at 17, Pele was a main starter in one of the most star-collected National teams: Brazil58. at 17 Messi was even not a regular substitue in Barcelona, what about Maradona? at 17, Pele was having a hattrick in World Cup semifinal something Messi and Maradona did not achieve in 3 world cups. (Maradona did not achieve in 4) at 17, Pele scored two goals and an assist in world cup final, something Maradona and messi did not achieve as of 13/07/2016. someone will come up with "it may depend and depends on the teammates they played with", yes it depends on the teammates but it will not depend if you are even not a regular bench player. if they were as good as you overrate them to be, why they were even not a regular bench player at the age of 17? being selected into Argentine 78 or Argentine 2006 must have been far easier than being selected into Brazil58. Your teammates will not prevent you from entering the main team if you are good enough. Pele was good enough and he entered the scene, he was given the right to enter the scene at 17, what prevented Messi or Maradona from entering the scene? I am even not going to talk about the rest of their careers, if you are, you are wellcome, I am open to the dialogue, we may continue. with all of these and more, we easily can conclude Pele was achieveing, was able to achieve things Maradona or Messi did not achieve. (waiting people to come with appeal to authority fallacy and arguementum ad populum fallacy )
This is interesting. I agree with the statement that you make in that Pele is better than maradona and messi when considering their ability and less so considering how they contributed. I agree with you that.. 1) Pele is the greatest in terms of ability I disagree that... 1) Messi and Maradona are incomparable to Pele when speaking of ability and contribution I actually think that the Pinnacle of Pele's play is in the 1970 World Cup. And I have watched a good number of his games at Santos in his younger years. Many people believe that Pele is on the decline in the latter 60s because his goal ratio goes down but after seeing his play in the 1970 WC, i refuse to believe these claims. In terms of ability, I believe that maradona and messi, see the game in quite a similar manner as Pele but perhaps to a lesser extent. They all have incredible vision, their decision making is very good, they are all creative, and have the ability to create individual plays with dribbles. I would say that Pele is more diverse than Messi and Maradona in the types of goals that he can score. However,... I would not consider it really that much better, if someone like Messi is also scoring an insane amount of goals. That's like me giving Ibrahimovic more credit for scoring more diverse goals than messi and ronaldo, yet... ronaldo and messi score more goals and do it on bigger occasions more often. In addition, we can also get into more conversation considering the occasions that Messi, Maradona, and Pele showed up. Though, i am not too familiar with the percentage of big games that Pele showed up at the Brazilian stage but I do know that he racked up a good percentage of goals against European teams.
My TOP-5 of the biggest 1. Pelé 2. Messi 3. Cruyff 4. Maradona 5. Beckenbauer Sorry, Ronaldo Nazario, Di Stefano, Zico, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Platini, Puskas, Garrincha, Eusebio, CR7, Romario, Muller, etc.