http://www.ussoccer.com/news/fullstory.sps?inewsid=52497 2004 Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup Schedule Qualifying - Ends May 23* Pairings Announcement - May 25 First Round - June 2 & 8 Eight USASA regional qualifiers vs. eight PDL teams Second Round - June 15 First Round winners vs. six USL PSL, two A-League teams Third Round - June 30 Second Round winners vs. two MLS, six A-League teams Fourth Round - July 20 Third Round winners vs. remaining eight MLS teams Quarterfinals - Aug. 4 Fourth Round winners Semifinals - Aug. 24 & 25 Quarterfinal winners Final - Sept. 22 Semifinal winners *Qualifying for USASA Region III does not end until May 31 Composition of participating teams: 10 Major League Soccer 8 A-League 6 USL-PSL 16 USASA (8 PDL, 8 regional qualifiers) 40 Total Teams
Can somebody please explain why the USL A-League and Pro Select League clubs must qualify for this thing? It was mentioned in the 2004 U.S. Open Cup thread that with 22 USL professional clubs and the 10 MLS clubs there are 32 total clubs within the U.S. that are professional. Sounds like the proper amount to dump into the second, along with 32 clubs from the USL PDL and the USASA. Why not have the 50+ clubs in the PDL match-up against 14+/- clubs from the USASA in the first round. The 32 winners would advance to the second round to face the 32 professional teams. ------ 1st Round - May 22/23 PDL & USASA Clubs (64); drawn on regional basis. 2nd Round - June 16 1st Round Winners (32), MLS (10), ALGE (10), PSL (12); it would be nice to have a blind draw (even on a regional basis), otherwise the brackets are set in this round and set-up in the same format (seeding, regional, etc.) as the past few years. 3rd Round - June 30 2nd Round Winners (32) 4th Round - July 20 3rd Round Winners (16) 5th Round - August 4 4th Round Winners (8): The Quarterfinals 6th Round - August 24/25 5th Round Winners (4): The Semifinals 7th Round - September 22 6th Round Winners (2): The Final
5 Canadian: Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver & now Edmonton And don't forget Puerto Rico. These 6 don't count for UNITED STATES OPEN CUP!
I have a couple guesses. 1. Many of the teams don't want the extra expense of an extra game. Corrolary: the USSF doesn't want the extra expense of sending additional teams to additional games. 2. The USSF is at their organizational limit managing 8 games per round. I can't imagine that this is true, being as they ran 16 game rounds in the past (oh, for the nights sitting here at work taking advantage of the high-speed connection, and having an online orgy of games with dozens of other fans!) But what the real truth is, I can't imagine. This tiered approach with two A-League and MLS teams pushed down one round is insanely complicated. But, hey, whatever. I'm glad to see more USASA and PDL teams involved. And I'm glad it's still going on, however convoluted they make it. Time to start a regular 'how will it be organized this year?' pool?
so 40 teams this year... up from 36 last year.... any mention of the FSW contract? They only showed 3 games last year.....
I too wish every team in the USl and MLS would get a chance to compete in the tournament proper. I like that they have doubled the number of USASA teams. A nice start. I don't mind teams from one league coming in at different stages. But with the A League and PSL so close to having all their teams in the tournament, why not do this? All it takes is one extra round and shouldn't require too much extra travel. First Round (8 USASA and 16 PDL) Second Round (12 winners and 12 PSL) Third Round (12 winners and 4 A League) Fourth Round (2 MLS and 6 A League and 8 winners) Round of 16 (8 MLS and 8 winners) Quarterfinals (8) Semifinals (4) Finals (2)
I'll look at the tourney composition in a different way: 10 MLS teams and 30 non-MLS teams. My view is that when MLS expands to 16 team, the LHUSOC will be a 48-team tournament (16 MLS, 32 lower divisions). My guess is that the USSF will not let the number of lower-division teams go above 32, so that later it wouldn't have to cut any teams. That's why I think they effectively had to drop 2 A-League teams and 2 PSL teams through qualifying. For this year, I was kind of hoping for the return of the "flattened bracket" with a first round of 16 teams leading to a second round of 32 teams. I would prefer that over the current "stepladder" bracket. It was a FUN format. Preston, I don't go for your 96-team bracket. Way too many bad teams in the tournament. Also, it's hard to create such a bracket that can be stable year-to-year, since the number of teams in each leauge keeps changing. The current format is close to what the USSF wants for the time being, with the number of teams from each division more or less set, using qualifying at the league level.
Yes, the number of teams that "enter" the tournament does change every year AND the number of teams from each level (MLS, ALGE, PSL, PDL, USASA) changes as well. You are 100% correct. But, in 2002 (I don't have the numbers for 2003) 147 actually entered the U.S. Open Cup. Here is the breakdown... MLS (10), A-League/D3 (30), PDL (44), USASA (63). You could've had the 107 PDL and USASA teams jump in at rounds one and two (some would get a bye into the 2nd round), whittling themselves down to 24 teams. The 24 survivors from from the first two rounds - the "amatuer hour", I'll call it - get thrown into the third round with the 40 professional clubs. It's always like this. 2001 - 153 teams entered: MLS (12), A-League/D3 (35), PDL (42), USASA (64). 2000 - 155 teams entered: MLS (12), A-League/D3 (44), PDL (38), USASA (61). 1999 - 146 teams entered: MLS (10), A-League/D3 (56), PDL (38), USASA (42). In these years, the PDL/USASA clubs play in the 1st and 2nd rounds; the A-League/D3 teams could've entered in the 3rd round; and the MLS clubs in the 4th round. My plan for 2004 is screwed up. There would need to be an extra round - much how I've explained in the previous paragraph - to accomodate the 50+ USASA clubs that have quite possibly entered the Cup - not the 14 +/- I've noted. Since I don't have the exact number, I can't breakdown how the 1st and 2nd round should look. The 32 professional clubs would join in the 3rd round instead of the 2nd round. But as VioletCrown suggests, the expense of playing an extra game (for the PDL, PSL, and A-League teams) has to be the problem. As it stands now they use league games as U.S. Open Cup qualifiers - or de facto preliminary rounds.
The thing is that there are too many clubs in the PDL. PDL East: Carolina Dynamo, NJ Stallions & Rhode Island Stingrays went from Div III to PDL PDL Central: Indiana Blast goes from the A-League straight down to PDL PDL South: El Paso Patriots also from the A-League straight down to the PDL, Nashville Metros from Div III to PDL about 2 to 3 years ago. The Pittsburgh Riverhounds & Charlotte Eagles went from A-League to Div III. & Cincinnati has shutdown. Something tells me that the economics of the United Soccer Leagues is not going well and that sooner or later, the A-League is just gonna have the 5 Canadian clubs and the Puerto Rican club with Rochester, Seattle, Portland, Minnesota the only American Clubs. PDL East: 15 Clubs PDL Central: 17 Clubs PDL South: 13 Clubs PDL West: 8 Clubs (Not counting Abbostford, Canada in the west) 53 clubs in total for the Premier Development league 12 clubs in Division III Pro Select League 10 clubs in A-League not counting Canadian & Puerto Rico. Sooner or later A-League will be down to 4, PSL could be down to 6. And the PDL will keep growing. Then you are going to have to start to move some of these teams into 2nd Dvision & 3rd Division. So if you want to stop making regular season matches doubling into US Open Cup Qualifiers. Something has to be done about competitive balance in the entire USL Leagues. The only way to make the US Open Cup into what the English F.A. does for the FA Cup. And I know that everyone wants this US Open Cup to involve every single club in US Soccer from MLS to the USL sides from Rounds 1 thru 10 and 10 being the Cup Final. Everyone has to understand that the way they are doing it is the only way to fit it into the US Soccer Club schedule. I don't like it as much as the rest of you, but if this is the only way to make the Cup tournament exciting then so be it. If MLS goes to 20 clubs. Then the PDL clubs have to be seperated to fill in the A-League US clubs and the Pro Select League. If everyone wants to have every club in US Soccer to participate.
Good point. I like the USOC format as is. I'm sure USOC people thought about and considered many different scenarios.
The last TV agreement, which ran from 2000-2003, called for a total of 16 games (an average of 4 games a year). Because FOX Sports Int'l (FSI) did 5 games in 2001, it only had to do 3 games in 2003. SUM/MLS has taken over the marketing and TV rights to the US Open Cup. Look for SUM/MLS to barter the US Open Cup to FSI in exchange for 3 time slots: both semifinals and the final. The rest of the games, which take place in the dog days of summer when the FSI networks have the lowest viewership, don't matter to FSI.
da_cfo: This is a great that it looks like Fox Sports World is going to show only the Semi-Finals & the Final of the US Open Cup. To me This is the time where MLS/SUM should start to allow the MLS Clubs and any other USL side that has a TV Contract to show the earlier rounds of the US Open Cup. Think about it now. LA Galaxy hosting or on the road in the 4th round of the US Open Cup. KCAL 9 shows the majority of the matches. Show it there. HDNet could also show a US Open Cup match if they could. Fox Sports Net Affilliets New England: Revolution SouthWest: Burn Rocky Mountain: Rapids Chicago: Fire New York: MetroStars (When the Mets are on Madison SQ. Garden Network Tues & Weds) West & or West 2: Galaxy (If the Dodgers or Angels are not home and are playing on the east coast, or already played a day game) DC has Comcast., The Crew might not get on Fox Sports Ohio due to both Indians and Reds are on the air but could be used as a tape Delay situation. Fox Sports Bay Area is the same because of the A's & the Giants for the Earthquakes. KC has MetroSports. Still I think this could be a great idea for SUM to do this.
We are NOT talking about a competition that will compare to the English FA Cup. Probably not in 30 years. Most teams, fans, and media don't care nearly enough to make it worth the expense.
That is true DAG. But still if there was some form of added coverage the news could be better, spreaded around better and then it could be promoted better. I just wish the USSF wouldn't do half a job.
I think the biggest problem with the Cup is that people don't understand the magnitude and implications of it. That's what USSF needs to do - to educate the media and general soccer population about the significance of playing in this tournament and how the little guys can win. In all honesty, before working at USL, I had no idea what the Cup was all about, even when the Mutiny and Crew played in games! That's what I'm talking about. I've been involved in this sport since 1975, and I didn't understand. I needed to be educated about it, and now that I am, I think it's one of the greatest opportunities a club has to show it's stuff! My team is fighting through PSL qualifying, and though statistically eligible, it's highly unlikely that we will make it into the first round. This will be a huge disappointment to the coach and management. Being European, they understand the significance of participating. Making it through qualifiying was one of our goals at the beginning of the season.
Soccer isn't a "growth" entertainment product in the US. It is a "mature" entertainment product. The job of the USSF and SUM/MLS is no longer to "grow" the product, but to "exploit" the product for every last penny of profit at minimal cost. Most of you still don't accept that soccer stopped being a "growth" product a few years ago.
Da_cfo. If we truly thought that. We wouldn't be chatting now would we. I'm sorry but in many ways it's still growing. And it has to keep growing because if there is a sense of complacency then it all falls apart. The league has to keep growing and the national team has to keep on improving. Also the USSF has to start truly talking about this tournament and somehow make it as exciting as the FA cup is to England. Also everyone who comes to this section they all want the US Open Cup to be like the FA Cup. They don't want to see these USL matches double up as USOC Qualification points. They all want Rounds 1-10 and replays if the match officially ends in a draw. We have to do our part as supporters of US Soccer and as fans of the US Open Cup to keep on doing this. To show every single orignazation from the USASA all the way up to MLS that this is the best tournament in the USA. That's all I have to say. And this is right now the best way to handle who goes into the tournament. Remember too many PDL squads. 6 out of 13 are going from the PSL and A-League has 8 while two of the 10 are already in, yet they have to play qualifying matches. 5 of the 16 are Canadian while the 16th is from Puerto Rico. Somethings have to be fixed.
No, at least I don't want all those rounds, which includes all those teams. I do mostly like the format right now. Don't hurt yourself by adding too many lousy teams. Right now, you have to be GOOD to get into the tournament. And who mentioned they wanted replays? Yeah, it's a little too bad that the A-League has dropped US teams, so it leads to a quirky qualifying format. The AL itself has to make its product beneficial to investors.
SJJ: I'm just saying that everyone who comes into the US Open Cup section here in Big Soccer and they want to change the structure of who should enter and how it should be. Alot of people keep making up these ideas that are simular to the FA Cup in England. They want it to be identical. But the country is so big and at the same time there are too many PDL clubs that it rediculous to consider so many rounds that 1. US Soccer calendar is too small to do so., 2. That the # of clubs in both A-League & Pro Select are shrinking., 3 That the only way to do it like the FA Cup in England is to officially shut down half of the PDL and the other half stays in the PDL and or force them to become part of the A-League & Pro Select League. Before the USL became a whole, it use to be the U.S.I.S.L. Pro Select was the top league while PDL was the bottom. And the A-League was on their own. No MLS what so ever and the US Open Cup was used as the Amature clubs tournament FA Cup. Now that the USL has pulled everyone together along with agreeing that MLS is the Division I top flight league of the USA. If it's possible to make it 20 clubs in all four divisions of Professional US Soccer then there is a chance that the US Open Cup can be like the FA Cup tournament in England. But since the Competition Committee added 8 more spots in the 1st round and 2 more spots in the 2nd round, this has become a more viable tournament because they recognized that the clubs in USL has improved. And once MLS gets bigger you will see US Soccer go back to the Eastern & Western Brackets and who knows it could be structured into the NCAA Men's Basketball's Final Four Tournament with 64 clubs battling each other. This is just my idea of how the Tournament can be. But for now I am happy with how it's working using USL regular season matches doubling as USOC qualification Pts as well. At least it's truly interesting on the table and to see who is going to squeek in. In fact these Qualifying matches can be considered rounds as well. The first weekend can be considered round 1 if you like, but then again that would be a different situation or a seperate form of round 1 of Qualifying. So never mind.
I have what I think is a different take on the Open Cup. I think it should be less "open." I think only the best teams from each league involved can play in the tournament. Now, I don't know how to work that idea for PSL, PDL, and the lower leagues, but the A-League and MLS should only have their best teams in it. Make it something to play for. For example, looking at last year's MLS Supporters' Shield table and taking only the top four teams, the MLS would field only Chicago, San Jose, New England, and Kansas City in the US Cup. KC would beat out Metrostars due to goals-against average. This would have implications on the MLS playoffs also. Only the top six teams would be in the playoffs. That leaves four teams with no playoffs and six teams with no US Cup play. Since we don't have relegation, the MLS needs something to play for. With only 10 A-League teams American, there should then be only the top four of those participating in the US Cup. I wasn't able to look up last year's stats all in one place, so I don't know how those teams would line up for the tournament. Thoughts?
Hartley: That's why The Champions League or in CONCACAF the Champions Cup was created. The best of the best from each individual country in their continent/area to play for the Confederational Club Championship. To eliminate some of the squads from MLS/A-League/PSL/PDL and the USASA would not be fair. That's why we have Qualifying Matches in the USL. Because of the over abundance of clubs for so little spots. And in tha A-League trying to fill in spots for not so many clubs. In England they have had 20 clubs in all four divisions from Premiership all the way down to 3rd Division. So for them it's easy as pie as well as every other FA association in Europe, Africa, South America and so on. We can't eliminate those clubs who are underneath 4th place in MLS/A-League/PSL/PDL. That's not fair and not right, or else it wouldn't be call the Open Cup. That's why all clubs should get the chance to play for the chance to be called the US Cup Champions. The Rochester Rhinos are not in MLS The Cape Cod Crusaders are not in the Pro Select League and the Westchester Flames are not in the A-League. So good post, but it would be wrong to go that way.