Alert: The offical "Fire Peter Vermes thread"

Discussion in 'Sporting Kansas City' started by Spoon, May 15, 2011.

  1. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    To be fair, I think the vibe is more frustration, and it's actually great that fans can have high expectations, even if they are too high. I think the FO would find at least some pleasure in that, as it means they've done their job of creating a club people care about, and can actually expect things of.
    It only becomes a problem if folks turn off on the club, which certainly hasn't happened to date.
    It wasn't so much the case in 96, when success was that they remained open for business in 97, etc. People now expect SKC to thrive.
    I don't disagree with what you're saying, though, and I do think firing Vermes would be a mistake, though a very unlikely to happen one. I'm more worried about him replacing Klinsmann if he takes the England job, or is fired, or both.
     
  2. ZooCougar

    ZooCougar Member

    Jul 31, 2014
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Most of the money is being spent off the field. Fact.

    Most of our "All Stars" were a result of the Cauldron blowing up the ballot count. Fact.

    When I said mediocrity, I was partly saying that SKC doesn't have to sign big name DPs to sell tickets. And yes, as far as DPs go, saying Besler and Zusi are mediocre might be being kind.

    Sorry, but these owners need to step it up because the league is changing.
     
  3. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I'm not sure that SKC off field spending differs much from that of any other club, and every supporters group is stuffing ballots. But it's very legit to note that among DPs Zusi and Besler are towards the low end (not surprisingly they also cost towards the low end). This, though, I think gets back to a common complaint which should be directed at MLS. A club like SKC has a really tough time attracted a Giovinco, GDS or Kaka. Big time SA and Euro players with a lot left in the tank want more than just massive paychecks, they want glamor locals, and KC cannot offer that.
    But we can attract players who are driven purely by football. the upside, they tend to cost less. A downside, they aren't as big in the star category. The odd thing: signing one of those for $800k takes up the same DP slot that signing someone for $5m does. We need more flexibility.
    Your final point, though, is so completely dead on.
    I was a STH in 1996 and for most years (except when there were wars and I was living overseas, though now I am living overseas and a ST, well, purchaser), but I follow the league pretty closely, and it's so crazy much better than it used to be. I love the club and believe in our approach, but our margin for error is so thin and getting thinner every year. We need to be pushing up against the top of our envelope, and I'm with you, I'm not sure we are right now. but we do continue to work it, I grant that.
     
  4. KC96

    KC96 Member

    Mar 2, 2013
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    #229 KC96, Jul 14, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
    Gentlemen, I am in complete agreement with the "fan side" of your argument of wanting the best for SKC. It is what fans should want and do want, and we have the best fans in my opinion :)

    I mean, I also dream of winning Club World Cup, beating FCB or Real or one of the Manchester's in the Final. Having a Messi (or Kaka, or Keane) on our team, etc.

    And I'm not White-Knighting for the owners when I stick up for them, but let's put on our realism hat. It takes TWO to dance, and for the reasons @mschofield stated, Kansas City is NOT a destination city, nor is it even on anybody's 'B' List or 'C' List to come here. And I say this as a native son and lifetime resident who LOVES this city.

    That means we will have to spend 2x or some multiple x above market contract rates to even get someone of halfway marquee value to be remotely interested in coming here, and that is just NOT wise money.

    It's easy to spend OPM (Other People's Money). Building infrastructure, and a winning organization to attract talent is a good plan. Spending $3M/yr on Nemeth (no), $7M/yr on Bradley (no, thankfully TOR is more foolish with their money), however many $M/yr Dempsey is making.... not a good plan. Would I like those people on my SKC team. HELL YEA - but it's not my money being spent on their overpriced salaries.

    ****

    To the contention that we are not spending "enough" (or that other clubs are spending as much as us off the field) there are people who have done more subjective OVERALL studies of MLS that rank where we are based on how the franchises are investing for future glory/ambition on and off the field. I refer you to Grant Wahl's "MLS Ambition Rankings" of each MLS club since 2012. Here are two links for the 2016 and 2014 ranking (can Google the others).

    http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2016/03/04/2016-mls-ambition-rankings
    http://www.si.com/soccer/planet-fut...ings-toronto-fc-leiweke-bradley-defoe-dempsey

    Summary:
    2016 - SKC 4th out of 20
    2015 - SKC 4th out of 20
    2014 - SKC 4th out of 19
    2013 - SKC 3rd out of 19
    2012 - SKC 4th out of 19

    I will say it again - We are consistently a top 20% Franchise on and off the field

    Our owners are vastly outperforming for the market we are in. We are fans, this is a fan board, I love that we ask for more. But keep some perspective.

    Ask for the best. But if we don't get the best (for MANY reasons, many outside of anyone's control) - please do not imply that we have cheap, un-interested, not-caring-enough, lazy (pick one/all) owners. Our owners are not perfect (no owners are), but the multi year facts to date consistently do NOT match those implied assertions, and those assertions come across to me as an uninformed, entitlement mentality.
     
    Sachsen and kopiteinkc repped this.
  5. KC96

    KC96 Member

    Mar 2, 2013
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    We can politely agree to disagree about the mediocrity (or not) of our current on field product. I have a question for you (or any others who believe we are "mediocre"), and thus an opportunity to pick up a convert to the "SKC is mediocre" side.

    There are 19 other teams in MLS, let's split them into 1/3ds,
    6 = "relatively bad",
    7 = (plus us = 8) "mediocre"
    6 = "relatively good"

    Name the 6 other MLS teams that you would be happy with totally swapping out 100% of our SKC roster, with 100% of theirs (throw in the coaching staff too), so that we are no longer "mediocre".


    I would probably take just Dallas and LA's roster, - and I'll just pretend that Keane, dos Santos, Gerard, Zardes (hometown in LA metro area), Arena etc. just love Kansas City's seafront, ocean tempered summer/winter weather, Hollywood, international culture/dining etc. and would gladly stay here for 2017.

    Oh P.S. Totally agree with you that we can fill our stadium without "big name" DP's. That speaks highly to the true fandom of SKC supporters. I always look at LA "fans" as generically being big name bandwagon types (of course there are exceptions). So, Kudos to us SKC fans! :)
     
  6. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I'm not sure I was at all critical in my post, but I would ask this: Do you disagree with Zoo's final point, MLS is getting better rapidly? I think that's true without question. With that, it seems self evident that SKC, which pursues a whole roster approach instead a top heavy side, but the rest of their rosters are getting better and better each year, has a smaller margin for error. Our hope is to be solid to good everywhere, weak no where, and that will wear folks down. That remains a solid philosophy, but it means our margin for error diminishes as the rest of the league beefs up their rosters through 28.
     
  7. Inca Roads

    Inca Roads Member+

    Nov 22, 2012
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Also keep in mind that most of the teams that see serious success throughout the season tend to show fewer injuries, especially at key positions. I mean, SKC's MLS Cup win saw them with a quite stable backline, fairly stable midfield, and very stable frontline. The key to winning the Cup typically looks like a) have an excellent starting XI and b) have them all or mostly all healthy at the right time. Solid depth is important, but only if things are already going wrong. Just becomes a question of how much a team gambles on their big shots. SKC don't like to gamble, and that can work out for them if the other teams' gambles fall through.
     
    KC96 and mschofield repped this.
  8. KC96

    KC96 Member

    Mar 2, 2013
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Also key in our 2012-2013 glory years was the Goalkeeper - and not just in the obvious ways. We made many of the same stupid/intercepted passes in the mid/backfield that ails us this season (maybe not quite as often, but we still did). Jimmy Nielsen would bail us out time and again, many times with a spectacular save, but just as often by seeing that the opponents missed an "easy" breakaway 1v1 shot.

    The opponents might call Jimmy "lucky", but I saw these (often slightly) off target breakaway shots so often that I eventually had to discount it from being "all luck", and attribute some substantial part of it to a combination of Jimmy "making himself big", plus his reputation - influencing the opponent's shot placement choice and execution.

    Example point (even though this one wasn't from open field play, it illustrates the effect of Jimmy's presence): Eddie Johnson publicly admitted Jimmy got in his head enough to influence his missed penalty shot that gave the 2012 US Open Cup to SKC.

    In general, opponent misses on typical breakaways/quick counters don't stick out in long term memory because they rarely make highlight reels, and don't show up in any goalkeeping stats or game summaries. And, because the resulting shot missed, over time we tend to forget the shoddy SKC play that set them up, and we just remember the fact that we won the trophy in the end.

    We still deserved our trophies - almost every champion in any sport has had flaws on the way to the championship, it's just that winning makes the mind overlook many of the flaws on the way to it.
     

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