Poch hasn't shown much confidence in any center backs outside of Ream and Richards. I don't think Freeman is actually an option at right center back because he has such little experience at the position. Of course, Poch has his own way of describing the formation, so who knows. But I think actual experience in the position is more important than familiarity with teammates. My theory is that Poch feels like March-June is enough time to get his squad in the shape that he wants, and I expect Banks to be there. I've been a Musah "backer," but he is one I'd say I'm starting to see the writing on the wall for. Not Banks, given his play this season and the lack of solid options at center back outside of Richards and Ream. The explanation is simple. Poch put a lot of value on players being in good form with their club team so that they would reach the end of the season in peak form. Again, I don't think he sees a big issue with pulling the team together in the four months or so starting in March.
Banks isn’t unique in this sense, but I feel he is one of a small handful of players that provide us with a litmus test on Poch’s player selection. Including Banks means Poch has passed; excluding Banks would be an obvious failure.
Has he? I'm asking because I don't really see a many people reporting here on actually watching the games, and even then, I don't think really any of us are very good at evaluating CB play holistically, especially from TV camera angles where a lot of the game is spent off screen. It seems to me that simply being in the Bundesliga and playing -- which is a data point -- is doing all the heavy lifting here. But we've had enough Bundesliga starters -- Morales, Brooks, Scally -- who have then played subpar for the USMNT that there absolutely needs to be more than that. I'm not saying Banks hasn't made a compelling case. I'm saying I haven't seen anyone make a compelling case for him based on actual play. (And no, things like Sofascore aren't great in general, but they are truly awful for CBs.) I went to look at the DAVIES database -- and it's been a year since that has been updated. @Bob Morocco what happened there? I think Banks should be called in for sure, and I'd lean to giving him a fifth CB spot just because he's 19, super toolsy and skilled and the upside of a cap is huge. But you said this ... And I ask ... what progression is occurring? Dude needs to play for the US and we need to see how he performs there before we ever talk about starting. Minutes in the Bundesliga is a terrible way to have a direct pass to "starting a few games" at the World Cup. And also ... I don't think CCV was all that near the team, so I'm not entirely sure how this is relevant.
I don't understand how you can say that with any certainty. Especially since in another thread you'll be commenting on how a hot couple of months for a striker will definitely get someone on the roster. Banks has been in camp, and he's been commented on by Pochettino. If he doesn't make the March camp, I'd agree, but I don't see how you can think he's been cut, especially how Pochettino seems to function around leaving guys to establish themselves at club.
You are generally right: Freeman hasn't played RCB for Pochettino. Freeman has played a stay-at-home RB that many people called a RCB (Much of the Gold Cup). Freeman has also played a more typical RB for Poch that people have also bizarrely called a RCB but absolutely isn't (The last window, for example). But when we've played a true 3 ATB, he's played RWB (Japan). But given the recency and Tim Ream's comments about it, it seems likely that the "Fluid 4" at the back that we played in the last window will be something we play fairly regularly. I suspect it's the "base" formation. In that, a guy like Dest played RW and Freeman played RB. Everyone wasn't in camp so we don't know that's permanent, but I can see where we want the Back 4 to be more fluid in defense and attack that Freeman presents as a more 2-way option than Dest (who you basically want to be going forward always). People can call that a RCB though I think that is pretty off the mark considering that the role is getting forward A LOT and playing defensively in a Back 4, but that's definitely a role Freeman is going to play for the US. If we play a real 3 ATB, we're probably doing it as a defensive move as opposed to an offensive choice (because we can flex the 4231 Poch plays into whatever we want in the build up and attack). And in that case, Freeman really only serves as an emergency option. But I don't think a true 3 ATB is the primary formation, either.
Too much handwringing. We have two CB’s starting in top four leagues. He’s one of them. It doesn’t need to be more difficult than that.
LOL. And you call yourself a scout. John Brooks was starting in the same Bundesliga in 2021, came in and almost cost us Qatar qualification with his trash play. Scally and Lund at the FB spots! Let's go! But yes, let's just take people based on club and league! Brilliant!
Why are you so certain that not bringing Banks would be an "obvious failure"? Is it because: Augsburg's coach thinks that Banks is a starter for Augsburg given ... Augsburg's tactics Augsburg's other immediate options at CB in a full season competition given day to day practice in Augsburg and with Augsburg's goals and objectives, which might actually prioritize his development over immediate results There's simply no way ... A coach who the same vaunted market values much more than Augsburg coach and Sporting Director who is designing a roster for... the US tactics the US pool both in competition and collaboration at CB -- he's competing against other guys but he's also literally never played a match with a potential CB partner! for a short tournament in International play knowing he probably has about 12 days of total practice with Banks going forward with a almost entirely short term winning goals and objectives ... ...Could choose someone else and have it be the right call? Do you want to go to the World Cup with a CB who has never played with his defensive line? Or just played once? Because that could be the call? Oh, and he's 19. And that's before we get to any kind of locker room thing, which, you know, there could be something. I'd like Banks to get a March call, especially since I do think physical tools tend to matter a decent amount in international play and frankly, I'd like to keep recruiting him. I'd like him to get a look as well for the summer, because he very well might be a top 5 centerback. However, if Pochettino thinks he's not a fit, or it's too late to effectively integrate him, or even that the locker room culture could be an issue if too many guys walk into the roster without having done the hard work before ... I don't have anywhere close to the knowledge to say definitively that that is wrong. I feel like we all had this discussion with Brooks, and while he had some bright spots with the US, he was remarkably error prone, and absolutely shit the bed multiple times in two qualifying cycles. Hell, we don't need to go back to Brooks; we have Scally. Far more Bunesliga reps and he's never been very good for us. Personally, I'd really consider calling him in and bringing him to the World Cup because of his long term potential -- lock him down -- but I'm also not in the locker room and I don't have a very strong opinion of his play in camp, etc. I just don't see how anyone can say, "Oh, he's in the Bundesliga, so this long time top flight CB and elite level coach MUST DEFINITELY be wrong."
Berhalter did it in Qatar. Ream and CCV had never played together before starting against Iran. Ream and Zimmerman hadn't played together in a year and a half.
Fair, but is it not a consideration? I'm not arguing against Banks. I want to see him called up in March and I'm not against him making the roster for the World Cup. I'm arguing against the idea that him playing in the Bundesliga means any exclusion from the roster is an obvious mistake. I'm particularly arguing it because the only counter to the years of experience and additional knowledge that Pochettino and staff will have is that ... he's playing in the Bundesliga. This is an argument that has been demonstrated to be simply a data point and not an assailable piece of evidence -- we have had plenty of Bundesliga starters underperform for us. A player who I doubt most of these people have seen play a full game -- and certainly not live, or for a camera following them -- is now a referendum on the coach.
Okay, you can go with Tristan Blackmon and Miles Robinson. I'll go with Banks. Also, please save the ad-hominems and debate like an adult.
I'm not sure why you think I would select Blackmon. I will absolutely be fine with Miles Robinson. I may or may not want Noakhai Banks, but I'm sure as hell going to use more inputs than "He plays in the Bundesliga." As I've noted, that means you are starting Brooks last cycle or Joe Scally now. Good luck with that. Basing 100% of a decision on what league a player plays in is lazy and proven to be insufficient in determining the best player for the USMNT. But it's surprising to me that someone who is literally selling their scouting opinions thinks those same opinions are meaningless here. Weird.
You keep on saying this, but it's obvious that there is so much more to it. Banks has had a very good year. He's had some games better than others, but he has played well no matter his age and experience level. If Poch likes him, he'll have three months and at least four high quality games to be working with him and preparing him.
I think the league a player is in is an important data point but there is also shading there. Augsburg is in the middle of the standings so better than when Pepi was there but playing for top teams in a league or middling or worst is a big difference. If Banks was starting at Bayern we'd all be demanding he get called up. I hope he gets called in so Poch can measure his progress but I'll defer to him on this one as a 19 year old CB starting in the WC must be extremely rare, and even making the team at that age must be very uncommon.
I have no idea which way this is going to go. The only evidence we DO HAVE is that Poch has never used Banks and didn't even call him up for November. At the same time, he had positive things to say about him during October camp. So, who the hell knows? He could start at the World Cup, or not make the roster at all. I have no clue which way its going to go. if I had to guess based on the scant evidence we do have, I'd guess the latter. But who knows?
I’m not really sure what you’re asking. There’s a ton of fluff in this post. You’re asking if I watch him play as if it’s a heavy lift(?). Yeah I, a guy who posts about USMNT on the USMNT forum, watch his games. In those anecdotal experiences it feels as if he’s playing better. The point about TV being a bad place to judge a center back I find very confusing as well. This isn’t a court of law, I’m a moron who likes soccer, I feel fine judging a player based on his television performance. As far as Sofascore, did I say something about Sofascore, I got no idea what your point is there. CCV, I mention him because he’s a guy who occupied a roster spot a few times last year on a 26 man roster.
Is there? Go back, and read the most recent back and forth... these are the most substantive comments: This post was made when he had 6 professional start, and he’s had 12 starts since then and a lot of really good performances. We have two CB’s starting in top four leagues. He’s one of them. That's it. And I've basically said three Banks-related things in this thread: I asked what the poster meant by a lot of really good performances - I have yet to see a response by anyone. And considering that in the previous exchange people claimed he was playing really well when he was giving up a decent number of goals ... yeah. I don't agree that just starting in a Top 4 league guarantees you a spot I don't think anything I've seen means that Poch not selecting him is some kind of obvious failure as I think we're all lacking quite a bit of information across the board I'd love a real discussion about Banks. I'd love to learn something about him and centerback play, because it's definitely not an area that I'm particularly knowledgeable about defensively. I can see what everyone can see -- size, speed, passing, aerial ability, and when someone makes an error. But that's not really the core of the job, is it? So if people are so very certain about Banks ... someone please tell me why without just relying on things like "team" and "starts." FFS, the dude who sells scouting information didn't cite a single scouting reason to call him in! Let's have a discussion about Banks. I can start. Clearly, his physical tools are super impressive -- size and speed means that he has incredible potential That physical profile works well with a US team that has mostly, over the last eight years, pressed and put their CBs on an island I've heard his passing is strong; I've yet to see it either way Retaining his starting job means he's obviously improved to some baseline -- perhaps not necessarily good, but if he was a disaster, he'd likely be off the field He's 19. That's all I got. I've watched him a couple of times, but it's hardly been enough to get much of a read other than physical attributes given it's CB play. So questions: How well does he really use his physicality? Most young CBs really struggle to use their size and physicality until about 22, 23 years old. They can get bullied and are often poor in the air despite their height. Both Richards and McKenzie went through this but Banks is a bit more solid to my eye. Does the passing skill manifest -- again, Richards makes some nice passes but he's not actually making those passes at a rate that you'd call him a plus passer What kind of defense does Augsburg play? I know he plays a LCB in a back 3, but how often are they on the front foot? How often are the CBs isolated? Then we have the stuff I think it is hard or impossible to know: how well does he read the offense coming and anticipate danger? How well does he coordinate with his backline? How quickly does he pick up new tactics or integrate? etc., etc. I'd love to hear a real scouting report that I felt wasn't hype, which is so common in USMNT circles. (I remember, for example, reading a fantastic scouting report of Folarin Balogun by an Arsenal supporter and it differed wildly from USMNT hype; it was very close to reality and what's played out.) If you've got it, fine. If it's really just Bundesliga and 6'4" and whatever, also fine, but I don't get the certainty people have around that. Personally ... I'd definitely bring him in in March and I'd actually really consider bringing him to the World Cup simply to lock him up because the tools don't come around often ... but if Pochettino doesn't, I wouldn't be at all sure he didn't have a damn good reason. Honestly, I'd really just like some good discussion here. But people never seem to get past the most basic of data points.
I'll be clearer. What aspects of Banks' play do you think have been "really good"? What do you like about his game? The most important parts of CB play are mental; it's about anticipation and positioning. Often most of what we see on TV are simply the interactions with the ball. But oftentimes, if someone is in this position, an error has been made elsewhere that we didn't see and many times, the best CB play is cutting off angles and approaches that we never get visibility to. We can only judge off what we see, of course. But I'm never going to trust my assessment of a CB like I would a winger, for example, because I'm simply not going to see a lot of work that goes into quality play. It's much tougher to evaluate defense, that's all. And especially defense that is often off screen.
I don’t really get this post either. Is the suggestion that he can only be good if a different scout says he’s good, and not if people watch him play and say he’s been playing better? I have a problem where I come off more combative than I intend to. I’m not trying to debate, what you’re saying it’s just not particularly clear to me. It also felt like there were assumptions made about how I was evaluating his performances, that were not how I was evaluating his performances. if you’re curious about why I think he’s improved, its because when I see he has a game on and I have time I will tune in to his game. I like tuning into games where national team players and prospects are playing in. When I made the original post where had made 6 starts, in the minutes I had watched he didn’t look super comfortable at the level. Since then I’ve thought his performance have improved. In the game on Sunday vs Heidenheim, I thought he looked particularly improved. He still made some mistakes for sure, which is where I am saying if he continues to improve on these performance until this summer he could be in the mix for minutes. I am not making a scientific paper on his performances, I am treating this forum about soccer as a place to armchair analyze. But really my point was to see what others think Poch is going to do.
Sure, I think you’re expecting a lot out of forum posters lol. I think his passing is very clean, I think he uses his physical tools very well to do defensive things, and I think he has reduced the amount of errors he makes at the Bundesliga level that have resulted in problems for his team. But I’m not an LLM, I’m not going to do statistical analysis for a forum post. I am treating the forum in the Roman style, I came here to discuss thoughts I have about a thing.
Not at all. I simply don't think there's much value to a discussion (to me) for someone to say someone is "playing well." In terms of discussion value, there should be something that backs that -- a player needs to do things to play well. And if the opinion that they are playing well is well grounded, then the poster knows what those specific things are. I really value interesting and in depth conversation and analysis. That doesn't exist at the "playing well level." I do as well. I'm a resolution through conflict person and while I don't take it personally ... I often forget others do. In terms of assumptions; I apologize for that. I am definitely fighting some other wars here and you aren't really the poster who makes a lot of those arguments. I guess I'm still curious specifically what about his game that you like, but that's fine. I talk about Tim Ream ... I like his passing, his back line leadership. Obviously, his foot speed on the outside worries me, and he's poor in the air. As is his tendency to have a hiccup a game. Anecdotally from coaches and the such, we hear he's been excellent at reading the game and positioning at times, but that's that part of the CB that I find hard to evaluate, period, and on TV especially. There are times I can see good defensive decision making, but on an overall % basis? No idea. I find it much easier to evaluate the guys who are better at erasing mistakes than not making them. It's fine if you don't want to elaborate, or if the elaboration is what you put above which, if I may, seems to be mostly about the reduction of errors (which is super important, obviously). I think there's a ~60-70% chance he gets called in in March. On one hand, he has a ton of potential and our pool is pretty weak. Poch has not been shy about calling in players he likes despite claiming the time for experimentation is over or other such things. On the other hand, he didn't play in the fall when he was called in, and it's very late in the cycle. By this time, most coaches are talking about locking down their CB combo. Poch also clearly likes some of our CBs more than the fanbase -- I find it hard to figure out how much of the pro-Banks sentiment is really anti-Ream. As for the World Cup ... he's going to have to play for the US to go and it may take some injuries. The 26 man roster might help. But how many coaches want to rely on a 19 year old CB at a World Cup? On the other hand, I do think Poch recognizes talent and talent is sometimes talent. I just think you've got people on here wanting him to start next to Richards in 4 months having literally never played a game for the US. How likely do we think this is? I know fans tend to completely discount experience but how likely do we think we bench the team captain to start a 19 year old CB in front of an inexperienced GK? Jedi and Richards have good experience but we may be starting a 21 year old RB as well. I know you aren't saying he should start so this isn't for you (and again, apologies for the collateral damage) ... ... but if someone is making that case like some posters are here ... I think there should be considerations of these things and more to it than "They are starting in the Bundesliga. It's that simple." I don't think the sport is actually that simple, and there's a mountain of evidence to that fact.
Yes. He is a really good passer. His athleticism is plus with really good size and physicality. He is able to get into the attacking half a little bit in possession. His defending has been solid without a lot of hours. He's doing this in the Bundesliga, but that is not the lone consideration.