It actually makes me dismayed to see so many prominent, or formerly prominent clubs forced to play in the 4th division...Will they ever return to decent hights? Be it lifelong local rivals like RW-Essen or clubs that where great once like TeBe Berlin or the former bigger DDR clubs. I sometimes wonder, the way the new RL is constructed makes promotion bleeding difficult and we will see a number of second teams belonging to Bundesliga clubs playing, teams that are not depending on earning enough money to survive in this graveyard because their motherclub will pay the bills. To this we might add the improved financial muscle that the 3.liga clubs can look forward to because of different deals regarding media rights etc..In other words, the new RL clubs might be prayed upon not only by the first and second division clubs..but by the 3.liga clubs as well. Of course it doesn´t help that the financial rules of German league football are very strict so we can forget about overspending a few seasons to ensure promotion, the books must be balanced...just look how Koblenz was deducted 8 points for sending in an unfinished financial statement, they almost got relegated. One of the more endearing facts of German football have always been that we as fans could sleep well at night despite relegations because it didn´t upset the financial structure that much..but it might be about to change, at least I fear so...
The number of 2nd teams of bigger clubs in the new Regionalligas is just disgusting. They should have found a better system there, such as a 2nd-team-league-system of its own... Then again most of the "big" "traditional" clubs down there brought it upon them selfs with bad management and that kinda stuff...
That´s true but I still feel that the cards are getting stacked against the clubs that have fallen on hard times by the new system. But no doubt there are plenty of reasons for this reorganisation, German footy in general might benefit from a stronger 3.liga and it might finally give some perennial underachievers like Fortuna Düsseldorf and Dynamo Dresden the necessary funding to get going...
2 seasons ago, they played 2 Bundesliga... But to be honest, I don't feel sorry for them to suffer this fate! A small club like Greuther Fürth has to cope with pretty low revenues and other disadvantages (3rd lowest budget of the 2nd league) every season ... nevertheless, it's always among the top 6 and has very solid finances! PS: Another traditional club, 1. FC Saarbrücken, just got relegated to the 5th league (after having played 2 Bundesliga 2 seasons ago). Simply unbelievable!
Of course the reserve sides are a nightmare for the fans, but the true problem is the ridiculous TV income, combined with the very high standards for a license. It will be pretty much impossible to stay full pro in the new Regionalliga, and the majority of 5th division sides will not be able to afford promotion, turning pro football more or less into a closed shop. I'd say it would be more honest to create 4 nationwide pro leagues (as in England), without reserve sides, and seperate them from the rest of the league pyramid. As it is right now, it's becoming more and more of a farce That's a pretty recent thing, though - wasn't the club close to insolvency in the mid 90s (the reason for that entire merger/"Greuther" thing...). And compared to a 3rd division side, they are pretty well off financially.
Sure, you won´t stay full pro, but a good club manegement finds a way to build up a good team under difficult conditions. Look at Oberhausen and FSV Frankfurt, they reached the 2nd Bundesliga although they played the season before under non-pro conditions in the Oberliga (4th division). I t has been like that and remains like this. Teams rise, teams fall, some get insolvent, some have sugar daddy and some others find managers that perfectly fit to them. The only thing difference to the past is IMO the speed of these changes. It sometimes scares me a bit, but fit also makes things interesting.
It surely has become MUCH harder. In Northern Germany there's only a handful (if at all) clubs that will be able to play above fifth level from now on. See this year: they couldn't even find enough teams to fill all spots in the promotion play off.
I see things differently. It might get a little harder for small clubs to rise in rank (although that remains to be seen, I don't buy into that completely as of now), but it's good for German football as a whole. Especially the fact that the reserve sides play in the third league as well. Let's face it, the biggest talents have been joining Bundesliga clubs for some time now and they usually gain their experience in the reserve side. So now, they can play under more competitive circumstances. Which is good for young German talents and hence, good for Germany. And come on, there are three reserve teams in the newly formed third league. It's not like they're taking over. And they can't move up anyway. Big deal. Is it fair? No. But come on, it has never been fair. This thread seems to me like the beginning of a romanticizing of a not so distant past. It sounds like a story you'll tell your grandchildren at your house's fireplace: "Back in the days when there was no third league and the Regionalliga was semi-professional, we still got to see football in its pure form...and also, Pluto was still a planet" Yeah, keep on telling that to yourself, it doesn't make it any more true. As for traditional clubs falling into oblivion, that's their own fcuking fault. If they can't keep up with the competition, then they have no business in any professional league. Obviously there are others who surprisingly can deal very well with those conditions. And even that gets blown out of proportion. RW Essen is the only team with "tradition" that didn't make it into the third league. I'm sorry, but if you can't finish ahead of the likes of Emden or Wuppertal, then you don't deserve to be in the third league anyway. Clubs filing for Chapter 11? Sorry, but the same rules apply for everyone. If others can manage their finances properly and you can't, you don't deserve to be up there. Simple. The third league is a chance for German football. Not just for talents, but also for the small clubs that will be better prepared for the second league. I really can't understand all this whining about it.
Benz, this thread isn't about the 3. Liga but the Regionalligas (4th level). Thing is, the 2nd clubs don't need to worry about finances so it will be tough for clubs like RWE and especially the other not so big clubs in the 4th divison like Altona or Kiel to be competitive against them.
Have you looked at the new Regionalligas at all yet? There are about 20-21 Reserveteams there. Thats what we were talking about. Its just too much. As said before, with 7 Reserveteams, in each of the 3 divisions, who probably all wanna promote into 3rd division too, how on earth is a financially not so strong club gonna even have a chance?! They can work as proffesionally as they want. Its just gonna be close to impossible for them to keep up with a reserve team financially... And how is it good for german football if the 3 proffesional leagues are gonna be more or less a closed-event without much fluctuation, except for some reserve teams going up and down every year?!? Thats why imo a seperate reserveleaguesystem would have been the better choice and would have made for a more interesting 3rd but especially 4th division. Well in that case... I generally agree with that. But the problem is that in the new RL it is not so much about coping with Emden and Wuppertal, but much more coping with HSV II, Hertha II or Eintracht II... You see the difference right? Essen is the only team with tradition? What about Magdeburg? What about Waldhof, Halle, Preussen? Again, generally agreed. But again, reserve sides dont have to manage their finances the same way that a regular clubs does....
Well, those reserve teams didn't appear out of nothing, did they? They've been there all along, so I fail to see the difference. Even if that was true, then it has been true all along. Again, where's the difference? However, I don't even think that they have a bigger budget. They probably have a better infrastructure though. And another key difference is that reserve sides typically don't buy the best available players, but young talents. So I don't see any more dominance by the reserve sides than we've seen so far. Essentially, nothing has changed in that regard. As I stated, I don't believe that to be the case. But even if that was true, the third league would still be more competitive than the old Regionalliga, which helps the (young) players to develop faster and become an alternative for 1st Bundesliga sides earlier in their career. So for the quality, it doesn't matter which teams play in the third league, but which players do. So young prospects like Kroos or Fischer or many others will have less competition and will not be ready as soon as they could be otherwise... Again, those reserve teams didn't appear out of nothing. Those theams have always been competing. Why should they all of a sudden become the overlords of the lower leagues? To be honest, I can't really judge east German teams. But the other teams you mentioned weren't even in the Regionalliga to begin with. So they obviously have bigger problems than reserve teams. True. And Bayern doesn't have to manage its finances the same way Cottbus does. There has always been inequality and there always will be. But there have also been clubs climbing the ranks nonetheless.
Seriously, you are looking at this from a very narrow point of view. The two tier Regionalliga system was rotten as well. You know, players don't play for free. However, you need good players to compete with the likes of Wuppertal and Emden (who both have pretty good teams, btw - there's no shame at all in finishing behind those this year). However, there is almost no way to generate any profit. TV money is ridiculous compared to what even the last place team in the 2. Bundesliga gets. A big club in the Regionalliga needs to get up as soon as possible (Eintracht Braunschweig lost more than 1 freaking million Euros this year, despite having an average attendance higher than many 2nd division sides). If this doesn't work out (and as there are more clubs than promotion spots it often doesn't) finishing third can already mean that you're in big trouble. Of course bad management often plays a role, I've seen a lot of this right here, but unfortunately, you don't get very far without money (Regionalliga hasn't been semi pro in decades... already in the late 90s a Regionalliga player could make 100.000 Euro/year....). And smaller clubs more and more aren't even able to go up. E.g. now the Regionalliga requires clubs to have a 5000 seats stadium. So again, it's build one or stay amateur forever. It's pretty easy for a fan of a Bundesliga club to point here, but it's a bit harder down here, believe me. Oh, and as for reserve sides... I know, Bundesliga guys love to tell us how they are needed and all. A country like Italy, without reserve sides in the league pyramid, could never compete on the international stage obviously.
Depends on the club. But IMO it should be shown a bit respect for the work at the reserve teams. They have hard restrictions like only beeing allowed to play with only 3 players older than 23. So they steady have to rebuild their teams. Furthermore the 1st clubs, who always speak of the "mad reserves" profit from getting cheap players from them when the boys turn 24 and haven´t make the step into the BL. P.S.: I would also like a seperated reserve team league. But IMO a system like the current system, that let the young talents train under BL conditions at the reserves and play against experienced players in their league is very important for their developement. Just take a look at how many German NT player have played in the past for a reserve team and what experiences they have collected there.
But that's exactly why the 3rd League has been introduced, to close the gap between the Regionalliga and the 2nd Bundesliga. (Btw. no disrespect to Wuppertal and Emden, I just used them to show that there's no point in whining about traditional clubs losing out, all they should be concerned with is themselves and beating their competition, like the teams mentioned above) Tough luck, but what are your ideas for solving that? There have to be some sort of standards. And reserve teams have to live up to the same standards. VfB II for example has to play in the Kickers stadium next season. It's a business and a spectacle as much as it is a sport. So if you can't provide that you obviously won't make a lot of money which prevents you from getting better and more expensive players. You may or may not like it, but how else do you want to solve the "money problem". The new system is not perfect by any means, but it's the best we've had so far. I'm not saying that it doesn't work, but it takes longer to form a top player because he obviously doesn't get the same kind of opposition at early stages of his career. And in Italy, the big guys still plunder the small clubs, it's a dog-eat-dog world.
It's a weak compromise. The money is still laughable, and it's still infested by reserve sides. Not so many right now, but the current Regionalliga set-up will probably see a few more getting up sooner or later. Btw, Wuppertal is a pretty "traditional club", as far as I'm cocerned. And I've no problem with Emden either. Reserve sides don't need a license, and they will never, ever fail the stadium requirements (as they can just name the stadium of the first team, even if they don't play there). And the current system might look good from someone supporting a Bundesliga side with little connection to the game in the lower divisions. But there it's far from being the best system we've had so far. The reseve sides are killing the interest in the local game - now that they are making up 1/3 to 1/2 of the fourth division leagues it will be worse than ever. Getting rid of reserve sides is an obvious first step, as it will raise the profile of the lower leagues, will make them more interesting and increase attendance revenue. 2nd, a reform of the league pyramid. 3. Liga was a good step in theory actually, but the Bundesliga honchos couldn't stop ********ing with it. I'd personally go for merging 3. Liga and Bundesliga (as well as the TV contracts), increase the number of teams in the top 3 divisions and add a new, more regionalized 4th division (6 Regionalliga groups would work fine), which would allow semi-pro sides to play at an acceptable level. Well, I actually don't give a shit about how the likes of Stuttgart develop their players or how long it takes, as long as they don't interfer with my club. Loan them out for all I care. Reserve sides of Bundesliga clubs attract the biggest talents obviously, so they will also produce many pro players. But there's no reason to believe that they are needed. England, the Netherlands and Italy do fine with other systems.
This was the best, most non-biased message I read here. Superb EE! The other argument is just getting to be old and annoying. The fans of the "smaller, independent" clubs always feel they're being unfairly treated or being held down by "the big boys" and the "big boys" think the "smaller clubs" are being favored more than they should be. Wow. We get that. Here's the deal. No system is going to satisfy everyone. Someone will always feel slighted or unfairly treated. I know this is a discussion board, but don't some of you ever get tired of bickering over the same old crap?? EE, I'm also for a reserve team league run by the DFL and leaving the Regionalligas to the smaller independent clubs. However, what if the reserve league begins to outshine the Regionalligas? Which is exactly what I think would happen. The smaller independent clubs will bitch about how money is being taken out of their pockets then too. Maybe how things are being run now is the best solution. It's just that someone will always find a reason to bitch and bicker........
So we disagree on the treatment of the reserve teams. But did I understand you right that you believe the new third league to be a step in the right direction? So why all this commotion? The reserve sides have been there before, nothing new there.
How exactly would this happen? I mean, if people want to see fancy tricks and all that crap, they'd probably rather watch a Bundesliga match, and not two reserve sides in a totally meaningless competition. And people who go out to watch Chemnitz or Meppen now probably won't switch anytime soon.
The two tier system was, in retrospect, a failure obviously. And this thread isn't about the 3. Liga (which is still not as good as it could have been) anyway (see the thread title). However, the new 4th division is something completely different. And finally, as you keep mentioning it... no, the reserve side situation has not always been the same. It has become a problem mainly during the last decade. See, in 1994 you still had 10 3rd division leagues below the 2. Bundesliga, which meant one to three reserves side per league at most. And the pre-Champions League/pay-TV era didn't see reserve sides dominating those leagues either, as they will likely do in the new Regionalliga.
Well, now we have a 3 Regionalligen compared to 2 before the change. So according to your logic, that would be an improvement, wouldn't it? I'd agree that more would probably be better, but calling it "the graveyard of German footy" is a little far fetched. If that's the graveyard, then what was the old system? Hell?
No, of course not. See, it's not a simple more leagues=better formula, you have to take the set up of the leagues into account. Today, a system like in 1994 wouldn't work anymore because of the differences in the TV landscape. And you can't compare the old 2 tier RL to the new 3 tier, as the former was the 3rd division (=more TV money, bigger clubs). The new RL will be a wasteland, with slightly less than half of all clubs in there being reserve sides. Here, the advantages of those will be much higher than in the old RL, clubs won't get much TV money, attendances will be lower, public interest will be lower (not 3rd division anymore!). it's the place were old clubs go to die.
I might add that DFB have actually taken steps to protect the 3.liga from second teams...in the end it was a compromise but anyway I feel that DFB is intent on making sure that the 3.liga never will be dominated by second teams. The other side of the coin might be that the new RL is considered fair game and might actually be totally dominated by them..
Forgive me for asking a somewhat obvious question, but if the new RLs are dominated by reserve sides, won't it actually be EASIER for a local club to make it to the 3.Liga? Let's say Magdeburg comes in 6th place in the new RL Nord, behind five reserve sides. Since the reserve sides can't play in the 3.Liga, won't Magdeburg automatically go up despite coming in 6th? Or am I missing something? (as long as they have the stadium and the money and the license, of course.) EDIT: OK, never mind. My entire premise is wrong. From wikipedia: Reserve sides giving up the right to compete in the DFB-Pokal is small consolation to the smaller local clubs who will be fighting to make it the 3. Liga against HSV II, Hertha II, Cottbus II, etc. Not to mention if the 3.Liga becomes dominated by reserve clubs it will make the 3. Liga utterly boring.