The New Hierarchy of Italian Soccer?

Discussion in 'Italy' started by RandyNA74, Jun 23, 2005.

  1. RandyNA74

    RandyNA74 Member

    Jun 9, 2004
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I'm noticing an increasing trend in Italian soccer over the past couple of months/years. It seems that now more than ever "big" clubs in Italy are receiving preferential treatment from the federation in terms of their status in the heirarchy of Italian soccer. I'm not talking about referee favors that teams like Milan, Juve etc. allegedly receive on a regular basis, at least according to the more embittered souls out there. The issue I'm referring to is an apparent attempt on the part of the federation to ensure that certain clubs are preserved as much as possible, even at the expense of other, smaller clubs. Three recent examples just to outline my point:

    1) Fiorentina's famous promotion based on "sporting merit." Due to the high-profile Catania issue, Serie B had to be expanded from 20 to 24 clubs to accomodiate Catania who had been relegated based on financial problems, only to be reinstated shortly thereafter when their replacement in Serie B had already been brought up from C1. To round out the 24, Fiorentina, newly promoted to C1 to begin with, are arbitrarily chosen to be #24. The "sporting merit" was never clearly defined by the federation, but Fiorentina's status as a club with a certain history, representing a large city, was an obvious factor.

    2) Lazio's plan to pay off it's debt in 23 (?) years. Bottom line - if a smaller club had presented a similar plan, they would be playing in Serie D next year. Again, Lazio's large fanbase, based in and around the largest city in the country, not to mention Lazio's pedigree of success (two scudetti including a recent one, etc.) must have been determining factors.

    3) Napoli - the club barely had time to lose the promotion playoff against Avellino, and already the powers-that-be hinted strongly that Napoli had "excellent" chances of being promoted to Serie B (or even Serie A! :eek: ) due to numerous clubs in B and A who would potentially be relegated based on their own financial irregularities. If Napoli had either won promotion on its own or finished say in mid-table, far away from the promotion zone, would certain high-ranking individuals have spoken of this possibility so quickly and assuredly if clubs like Reggiana or Sambenedettese had been in Napoli's current position? The answer is obvious...

    Here is the point I'm getting at. It seems the federation is beginning to view big markets with greater importance in the grand scheme of things. Sure, they always have to a certain degree, but in the past, if a big club were relegated, everyone would say "oh well" and wait for them to come back up. Now, in the era of multi-million dollar TV deals, where marketing has become king and it's all about needing to sell a product to as big an audience as possible, things are different. Now, it hurts everyone to a certain extent if big clubs representing big markets are not around. Let's face it, would you rather watch Milan-Siena or a Milan-Napoli, with a competitive, stable Serie A Napoli club?

    In recent times we've had not only Fiorentina and Napoli, but also Torino relegated to minor markets. Genoa. Sure, Palermo has stepped up and that's not a small market. But we've also seen Siena in Serie A, and for two years now and counting. We've seen Chievo, the second Verona club, step up and play in Serie A where the "real" Verona club languishes in the minor ranks and at one point faced relegation to C1. Lazio could have just as easily been declared bankrupt and relegated who knows where depending on how strict the federation wanted to be with its problems. Roma had some close calls.

    What do you guys think? Are the three incidents I mentioned above isolated incidents, or do you think the federation will continue to defend the big clubs in an effort to protect the overall quality and entertainment value of Serie A? What do you think of the possibility that one day, perhaps 20 years from now, there will be a core of Serie A clubs representing bigger markets that are "untouchable" and possibly unrelegatable, with other clubs around them fighting it out to fill in the remaining slots in an 18 or 20 team Serie A?

    Based on the radical changes soccer has experienced in recent years (big money TV rights contracts, institution of the Champions League, etc.), the possibility of certain clubs being granted permanent status as Serie A clubs would not surprise me in the slightest; an Italian G14 if you will. After all, a Serie A full of small clubs who play above clubs from big cities who have 70,000 in their stadium doesn't make much sense if you think about it. Perhaps there will be an "Italian Premier League" one day which will feature only the big clubs, with smaller clubs playing in a "Division I" league where the top finishers playoff against the weaker "Premier" clubs for places in Europe and so on. Stranger things have happened...

    I'm not saying for a minute that small club who work hard and play fair shouldn't be given a fair chance at being in Serie A. I'm just saying that eventually someone out there may think it makes good business sense to ensure certain markets (i.e. Milan, Rome, Florence, Naples, Turin and others) are represented in the major division no matter what. Of course, there are a million and one problems potentially associated with creating an official heirarchy, but that hasn't stopped numerous other potentially bad ideas from being implemented already...
     
  2. RedSkinheadUltra

    RedSkinheadUltra New Member

    Jun 2, 2005
    NE Revolution
    Re: The New Heirarchy of Italian Soccer?

    I agree completely, couldn't have said it better myself.

    You're right, cases like those are not coincedences. They are obviously tied to the constantly increasing trend of turning the game into a business.

    BSkyB and Rupert Murdoch will be the death of the game as we know it. All-seater stadiums, exclusive television rights, pay TV etc.

    They clearly want to gear their "product" towards the arm chair fan and focus on exporting the big clubs as brands around the world. This will (and has already been) devastating for the smaller, provincial clubs.

    No al Calcio Moderno!
     
  3. panicfc

    panicfc Member+

    Dec 22, 2000
    In my chair, typing
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: The New Heirarchy of Italian Soccer?

    That's a great post Randy. I'm thinking you are on to something with this. Basically the strong will eat well and the weak will feed on scraps.
     
  4. RandyNA74

    RandyNA74 Member

    Jun 9, 2004
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Re: The New Heirarchy of Italian Soccer?

    ....which is slowly but surely happening now with the current Champions League format and G14 nonsense. One day we're going to wake up and never know what hit us.
     
  5. allycks

    allycks New Member

    Feb 14, 2002
    Parma, Italy
    That is an outstanding post! You've said it all. If I might offer a small counter-point which will pale in comparison to what you've written...

    Remember, both Fiorentina and Napoli were relegated due to financial issues, not due to performance on the field. Almost every team in Italy has financial issues these days, even Juventus, but it seems that only teams without political clout get punished, in terms of relegation, for the financial shenanigans that they all do. It's like Fiorentina and Napoli were sentenced to a few years in purgatory, then the club and their millions of fans (and new ownership) are swept up to higher ground by those that knocked the previous regimes to the depths.
     
  6. AmericanRosanero

    AmericanRosanero New Member

    Dec 11, 2004
    St. Louis, Mo
    This is why I am very hopeful that Udinese, Doria, and of course, Palermo continue the runs they started last season, and start to make the Milans and Juve sweat. Wouldn't it be something if I was (for example) of the CL reps be a Juve/Palermo/Udin/Messina and the UC was Inter and Milan. The FIPG would ******** themselves.

    Here's hoping, I suppose...
     
  7. RandyNA74

    RandyNA74 Member

    Jun 9, 2004
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    This is a very good point as well. It seems that after knocking the clubs down, partially in an effort to send a strong message, and perhaps also in an effort to give an appearance the powers-that-be wanted to ensure the clubs were restored to their "proper" place as soon as possible...
     
  8. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Personally, I would prefer it to be Juve, Sampdoria, Palermo and Reggina. Udinese are chokers in Europe. Reggina is only there because I'm half Calabrese but they shouldn't have performed like they did in the second half of the season. Reggina were near the UEFA Cup spots at about the halfway stage of the season.

    Although I'm Calabrese, I hope that Palermo do well in the UEFA Cup and that they don't perform like Udinese.

    PROUD TO BE A DORIA too!
     
  9. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    What is hard to believe is that Roma and Lazio are still in the Serie A. Obviously there are the debts but they never pay their taxes. Sergio Cragnotti, the former Lazio president, is in jail serving a two-year sentance.

    Once I heard that the Bologna president wanted the Roman clubs to be relegated. His reason was that he was always paying his taxes and the presidents of the Roman clubs weren't paying anything.
     
  10. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    If Parma had actually filed for bankruptcy and end up doing what Fiorentina did, surely they would get the same preferential treatment. They haven't won any scudetti but their record in Europe is much better than Fiorentina's and Napoli's.
     
  11. allycks

    allycks New Member

    Feb 14, 2002
    Parma, Italy
    Yes, but I don't think that really figures into the equation. Or anyway, less than you might think. You're right that Parma could've been sunk, basically terminated, when Parmalat went belly-up (by the way Parmalat still exists as a stripped-down Tanzi-free company and is doing very well) but the team was saved by a law giving 'debt relief.' Basically three years in which the government would ignore the debts and Parma could continue functioning as a club.
    So why were Parma and Lazio and Roma given the chance that Fiorentina and Napoli and Ancona weren't given?
    It's mostly politics. For example the mayor of Parma is very close friends with Berlusconi...
    You mentioned that Bologna's president has raised the issue. Lately he's been saying that Parma is in Serie A mostly due to help from the state. It's absolutely true, but nobody is listening to him or doing anything about it because he has no political clout. It's Machiavellian-- this is Italy after all. And finally look at Preziozi, Genoa's owner. He was a 'trouble maker' at Como, loudly complaining about the hierarchy of calcio, publicly rubbing the big-wigs the wrong way. Then he moved to Genoa, got them into Serie A, and what do you know? Immediately he has to face some seemingly trumped-up charges of match fixing, and risks getting dropped back down to B or even C1.
     
  12. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    By the look of things, the Bologna president isn't a very popular man.
     
  13. RandyNA74

    RandyNA74 Member

    Jun 9, 2004
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    The Bologna president has a history of run-ins with the Roman clubs, particularly Roma. I can't remember what the issue was, but something about Roma never having paid him for away tickets etc.

    Glad to see the Parma issue was brought up there as well. The story after Parmalat's bankruptcy never made sense to me, but since the mayor is apparently friends with Berlusconi, it's quite obvious why Parma didn't suffer the same fate as Fiorentina and Napoli. Plus, while not actually winning any scudetti, Parma did win some trophies in Europe and was in many ways "the club of the 90's" for Serie A. They could well end up in the hypothetical Italian G14 in the future.
     
  14. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

    Feb 8, 2005
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    walk of life people. the biggest strongest will get the advantages. when a team gets demoted for financial reasons instead of preformance reasons, i think things are a bit different. obviously itd be fair to everyone that napoli play their way up the ranks, especially since it seems theyre not good enough, but they dont really belong in serie c1. its in everyones interest that the big teams play at the highest level. just as its in everyones interest that clubs can survive through financial difficulties. why should parma, her fans, staff, players and the whole city suffer for years because some idiots did tricks with the books at parmalat? the best thing would be that all teams had to ballance their books. but thats never gonna happen unless every team in europe do the same thing. but yes, the big/important clubs get favours. just like the goverment might step in and help out a really big company from having to close down for financial reasons, while a really small one they dont see as important to try and save. or just like the hot girls get the most popular boyfriends :cool: its not fair, but its never gonna change. oh, and there is no serie d. good post though.
     
  15. RandyNA74

    RandyNA74 Member

    Jun 9, 2004
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I thought Serie D does exist, or was it called something else this year? If they changed the name, it will be called Serie D again at some point in the future. :D
     
  16. phillips10

    phillips10 New Member

    Oct 15, 2001
    Cranford
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    yes, more than a few of the powers that be were pleased to see Bologna go down to Parma...

    excellent post Randy, we see similar have/have not scenario in US sports with rich owners/biggest markets always dominating...

    the bottom line to me in all this is yes its "unfair" as italians like to label things but as randy says Serie A is far more entertaining with these big clubs back on solid ground in the top flight....less siena and empoli, more torino and genoa etc...
     
  17. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Have you seen Pretty in Pink, The Breakfast Club, She's All That or American Pie?
     
  18. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    They're shockers but Siena are still in the Serie A.
     
  19. aloisius

    aloisius Member

    Jul 5, 2003
    Croatia
    This is an issue I consider strictly to be between the clubs and their creditors.

    If the creditors are willing to wait 23 years to get their money back, good for them.

    If they’re not they can shut down Lazio . The federation shouldn’t get into that.
     
  20. Lillywhite

    Lillywhite New Member

    Jun 3, 2005
    London
    Re: The New Heirarchy of Italian Soccer?



    Italian clubs getting into massive debt/ being relegated and then being treated like a naughty child instead of professioinal sprots teams will be the death of football. Italian football anyway.

    It's a horrible situation I'm sure but don't deflect the blame on to someone who isn't anything other than a peripheral figure in the whole scheme of things.
     
  21. RandyNA74

    RandyNA74 Member

    Jun 9, 2004
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Well, the problem is that if a club outspends their own worth, it gives them an unfair advantage. Look at French clubs and the strict rules imposed upon them by the French government. French clubs and fans have at times (quietly) complained that other clubs, such as Italian and Spanish ones, have a big advantage over French clubs because they don't have to operate at a profit. In fact, an article published just today in La Repubblica suggests that 70% of Italian clubs in A and B operate at a deficit, stating that while Italian clubs have brought in 1.2 billion Euros last season, they have spent 1.8 billion. This could never happen in France.

    The federation has to intervene in cases like Lazio's and others'. Otherwise, a club will spend itself into oblivion, firstly giving it an unfair advantage against other clubs who are doing the decent thing and attempting to spend within their limits (do clubs like that actually exist?? wow! where?? :p ), and secondly bring about their ultimate demise as they go bankrupt and start again in C2. The federation has an obligation to ensure that neither of these things happen (especially the second one).
     
  22. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

    Feb 8, 2005
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    have you seen Close Encounters of The Third Kind?
     
  23. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

    Feb 8, 2005
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    actually its between lazio and the goverment. they owe back taxes.
     
  24. phillips10

    phillips10 New Member

    Oct 15, 2001
    Cranford
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    right of course, and empoli is coming back....but I think less of those types of clubs...and more of the toro, genoa and someday napoli is better for the overall league.
     
  25. allycks

    allycks New Member

    Feb 14, 2002
    Parma, Italy
    Lazio is listed on the Milan stock market. I've always seen this as a curiosity, you know, fans who want to sink a few Euros into their team's 'ownership.' If anything it would seem to make the club even less stable, what with the fluctuations of the market.
    Though I could be wrong. (It's been known to happen. :p )

    Anybody know if the movement of shares has any impact financially for the team?
     

Share This Page