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  1. L'orange

    L'orange Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Jul 20, 2017
    Yes, I think this would be a good idea. Beerensteyn is a good player, fairly fresh as she has not played a lot--and, importantly, she is physical, and you need top play physical at times against a physical U.S. team. Bring Martens in the second half and hope that she can run and play without thinking about her toe. I just don't know how much energy the Dutch will be able to sum up for this match after a long tournament in hot conditions, and on one day fewer rest (completely unfair). They'll have energy to start, but can they keep it up as they'll need another Sweden-like effort. But they've surprised me with their fitness, and I hope they do so again on Sunday.
     
  2. It's rather funny how the Anglo-Saxons are pissing on the Dutch team, like the BBC pundits and the majority of the Yank posters in their USA forum.
    Just to remind them who they're dealing with, the reigning Euro Champions, unbeaten in two tournements sofar, taken down the reigning Asian Champions and last WC finalist plus supposed powerhouse Canada.
    Sarina Wiegman should hang in the locker room the pissing down of the Orange team by the Yank players with the remark that their first and second team are the worlds best teams with a banner reading:
    The USA "ladies" call us less than their reserve team

    Just for motivational purposes.
     
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  3. Yup, if necessary she can bulldozer her way through an American player.
    After the Swedes, who were a rare experience as bigger and bulkier than the Orange team, the Yanks in physical pov arenot in the same league as the Swedes.
     
  4. L'orange

    L'orange Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Jul 20, 2017
    Groenen's goal was her /first/ shot on goal in the tournament. Wow. And let's ask: How many SOGs does Van de Donk have--or Spitse. I think you could count them on one hand--for all three midfielders. This has been one of the many issues with the Dutch attack--not enough attacking/shooting/playmaking goals from the midfielders. They, have, however, played great defense--and that should certainly be the first priority on Sunday--and then attack!
     
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  5. https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/1938419177/groenen-met-dank-aan-van-hooijdonk
     
  6. L'orange

    L'orange Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Jul 20, 2017
    The big problem for The Netherlands in this final will be dealing with the very aggressive U.S. high press. The outside backs push up well into the opponent's defensive half and make it hard to get the ball out. Right back O'Hara is plays very aggressively forward when the opponent has the ball--so much so that in the England game forward Rachel Daly, who is a pretty talented forward, had to spend a good deal of the game backtracking to play defense and help get the ball out.

    Van Dongen will be under a lot of pressure from Heath and O'Hara, and she's no Lucy Bronze with the ball. The U.S. had a lot of success pressing on the England left side, less success on the right because Dunn, the U.S. left back, isn't quite as aggressive as O'Hara, though she is still forward, and because Bronze is a physical and athletic right back who is good at getting the ball forward.

    The Netherlands will need to figure out how to cope with this press, which is really a key to the U.S. success, if they are to have any chance in this game. I think I'd play Beerensteyn in place of Martens in this game on the left specifically because she is a stronger, more physical player than Martens. The Dutch will really have to play deftly out of the back--in the style of the Spanish, I think. The alternative is to simply try to loft the ball out of pressure--but of course that would usually result in a U.S. centerback picking up the ball and back it comes into the Dutch defensive half.

    The other thing that makes the U.S. dangerous is that when they win balls with their press, they often look to find Lavelle, who is dangerous and very nifty in space. She has played well in this tourney. She appears to have tweaked her hamstring in the England game and I'm not sure if she will play in the final; we Dutch fans can only hope that she doesn't. If Lavelle is out, the U.S would play Mewis in her place. Mewis is a good player--tall, a nice distributor, but not nearly the threat going forward that Lavelle is.
     
  7. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is what I was thinking not long before Groenen's goal. I mean we're focusing on the subpar play of Van de Sanden and Martens, but I started asking, have we seen the midfielders combine for any dangerous attacks, stringing even two passes together for an attack in front of the penalty area? And lo and behold, they string two passes (with Miedema in the middle of the combination) and they score
     
  8. Ethan Frank

    Ethan Frank Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Jun 11, 2019
    Not all that many, but does it have to be at least two midfielders involved and right in front of the penalty area? Groenen found van de Sanden with a tidy pass right around the edge of the box near the touchline in space against New Zealand, Groenen played a couple of similar passes against Cameroon, Spitse and Groenen both played van de Sanden in dangerous positions around the edge of the box against Sweden while van de Donk played Miedema in around the edge of the box after an interception against Sweden, Groenen played in Miedema close to the top of the box against Italy after a steal, Groenen played van de Donk in the penalty area after an interception against Italy, and van de Donk's shot against Japan that led to the corner for Martens' goal was the result of some good passing play. Some touches, particularly van de Donk off the top of my head, around the top of the box have also just been a tad off, preventing solid shooting opportunities. I think criticism of Martens' play outside of the Cameroon game has been a bit over the top, but I think focus on the play of the Dutch's starting wingers (and Miedema) is fair. I would also gladly welcome more play like Groenen's goal, but that would still be more like the midfielders stepping up more than they already have been since Canada. Whatever front three plays against the US needs to perform better.
     
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  9. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Van Dongen has been decent for Netherlands so far at this World Cup, but Kika Van Es was unexcusable for the way she picked up her injury, thus denying Dutch defense one of their starting members! :x3:
     
  10. First minutes of the match.
    The USA presses forwards and O'hara is about 10 meters into the Orange Lionesses Den with the ball in possession of Lavelle, who passes to Heath 10 meters from the box. Bloodworth intercepts and wacks it into the US half and Beerensteyn suddenly has an open pitch in front of her and runs for the ball, takes it and speeds towards the USA box, where Miedema arrived to collect the pass. She aimes...and gets torpedoed by Abby Dahlkemper. Penalty and red.
    Miedema scores from the spot in the same minute as Johan Neeskens did 45 years before on July 7th 1974.
     
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  11. hotjam2

    hotjam2 Member+

    Nov 23, 2012
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Yikes, Van Dongen been the weakest starter of the Dutch.
    yep , read my mind on this. I wonder why most opponents of the US haven't taken this more seriously? I mean, watching a friendly vs Denmark early last year, and the Danes got decimated, 1-5, mainly cuz they spend their time passing the ball among themselves, while the US wise to tha tm, intercepted so many of their passes(for instant goals).

    Hopefully, being a former US college player. Wiegmann first & formost understands this & does the appropriate thing & gets more players to long ball it out of the danger zones(tha't why in my book, van de Sanden now becomes more siginficant than ever as she's the only one((now that Martens might be out)) to latch on to those high balls & get behind enemy lines)

    one thing might also add, fielding an older team, Ellis has still used the sledgehammer(her high press) significantly less(perhaps the first 15 mins. or so of each half) & actually laxed her team to the point of even bunkering for extended time after they take the early lead
    But now, with a final & no other games to play after that, you bet Ellis is only going to intensify her high press, which we pretty much saw that happen at the 2015 WC where th Japanese defense was slaughtered in the ealry stages of that game.

    The Americans don't play that physical, I mean, Ive seen them play where they commited ZERO fouls for the entire game. But their highly athletic! Notice they have a quicker first step than most of their opponents?
    We Americans, tend to be multi sport, soccer tends to attract more sprinter/runner/cross country types to the game over here, Plus we don't even play FIFA soccer, but more unlimited subs game all the way through the college age, so hence, we play more direct type soccer, constantly running instead of the more pace type game(though Ellis has done a remarkeble job of conditioning/pacing her squad to a point that they don't look tired)
     
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  12. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Simple answer is that Wiegman is using a deep double pivot of Spitze and Grönen and neither one of them are going forward much at all in the knock out rounds. She wants to use them to shield the back line which is the weak spot of the team. In some of the group stage matches Grönen did make some inside runs to open spaces. I expect the same type of formation will be used tomorrow.
     
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  13. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    US LB Crystal Dunn is the weakest player on the team. She is a converted forward playing LB and defensively poor in terms of positional play. van de Sanden has had a poor tournament and will have to lift her game in the final.
     
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  14. L'orange

    L'orange Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Jul 20, 2017
    I read today on a Dutch site that Martens might not play on Sunday. It seems her injured toe is in bad shape. Maybe the team can get some minutes out of her--but how many and of what quality? Without her you are asking Van de Sanden and Beerensteyn to play the entire match. Roord will come in--but for who as there will surely be plenty of tired players? And if you bring in Roord for a winger your wide play disappears on one side disappears.

    As hopeful as I want to be, I think this match will be a hill too high to climb for the Dutch. I don't think the team will be rested sufficiently by Sunday. The starting group has pretty much played all game, every game, and is coming off a huge effort on Tuesday. Meanwhile, the U.S. has rotated some starters, so that team will be fresher, and of course they have much better depth.

    On a brighter note, I read that KNVB seems seriously interested in hosting the 2027 Women's World Cup. It's early but there have already been discussions with FIFA. That would be cool.
     
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  15. L'orange

    L'orange Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Jul 20, 2017
    The Dutch will have to try to play a lot on the right, if they can--both to try and take advantage of Dunn and to lighten the pressure on Van Dongen on the left. Our left side could be a problem in this game, for sure. Dunn's positioning can be off at times, but she is an excellent athlete and recovers well. We saw that in the game against France where Diani beat her a few times but Dunn managed to recover and limit the danger.
     
  16. hotjam2

    hotjam2 Member+

    Nov 23, 2012
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    2006 World Championship basketball finals; Paul Gasol, leading scorer & rebounder by far of the Spanish team, had to miss the flinal due to an injury tin the semis, but his team mates played like 'wild men' in the championship game, thoroughly thrashed the Greeks by over 20 points & gave all the credit, that the 'spirit of Gasol' was on court floor beside them that day

    so may the spirit of Materns toe lead them to victory!!!

    unfortunate sub story; Greece was too busy partying the night before from their momumental upset of the US in the semis, to play effective again. and that being coach K's first venture as after that he revolutionized his NT unot holding practises/games all year long & never lost a single game again on the international scene!
     
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  17. Plxix

    Plxix BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Mar 13, 2006
    For Holland to win, the Durch goalie will have to replicate Hope Solo vs. Brazil in 2008. It's very possible that we will see a monumental upset.
     
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  18. law10

    law10 Member+

    Dec 26, 2007
    In ice hockey someone like Patrick Roy can pretty much single-handedly win a Stanley Cup like he did in '93.

    But in soccer, not so much. It's 24' x 8' and a front post to back post pass is a lot harder to save than kicking your leg to the other side of a 6' net.
     
  19. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very good point
    Rather poor point. Crystal Dunn isn't the weakest player on the team and most people now realize it's lazy thinking to think so. For example, Kelly O'Hara had a great assist on the first goal against England but her crosses float more often than not. And which side did England's best attacks come from? First goal: Mead assist on the left. PK from play on center and left. O'Hara's been lucky most of the best wingers in the tournament have been on the right and of the best left wingers the US hasn't played Italy (Bonansea) and the one they will face, Lieke Martens, has played poorly and has an injured toe.
     
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  20. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is van Es able to play? Netherlands may need to use her. Not that I know the team well but I have a hard time seeing who can make a difference, who can be a gamechanger, coming off the bench in the second half besides Beerensteyn and Roord (and one of them may have to take the place of Martens). If Wiegman had confidence in anyone else I think we would've seen them by now.

    Beerensteyn and Roord are definitely going to figure in this match. The question is who else does Wiegman turn to if they need someone who might be able to change the game?

    Obviously Wiegman doesn't have great confidence in the rest of the bench that we haven't seen already. Can van Es, van Dongen, or Bloodworth play anywhere further forward? If so, I'm going to take a shot in the dark and speculate:

    a) Dekker comes in and Bloodworth moves up into defensive mid and either Grönen or Spitse play higher.

    b) Van Es or (perhaps Renate Jansen) move to defensive mid and Grönen or Spitse play higher.

    I'm keeping in mind Orange14's post on how Wiegman is playing Spitse and Grönen in a deep double pivot. Those two are probably more likely gamechangers in the attack than anyone on the Netherlands bench besides Roord and Beerensteyn who I'm assuming will figure greatly in the game already. If they need a goal, Netherlands best bet may be to bring in a sub and push one of them further towards the attack.

    Laura Harvey often did this for the Seattle Reign when her midfield consisted of Kim Little, Jessica Fishlock, and Keelin Winters. If she needed a goal and one of her forwards was nearly spent, she would bring in another midfielder and push Little or Fishlock further upfield.
     
  21. L'orange

    L'orange Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Jul 20, 2017

    It's interesting that Van Es has been benched since the second game of thVan Dongen seems to have a weak right foot--I almost never see her use it--and sometimes as an outside back you need to use your right leg and drive inside the pitch to escape pressure on the touchline. e tournament, when she started against Cameroon and by all accounts had a bad game. The coaching staff seems to have more confidence in Van Dongen at this time, but I'm not sure how much more Van Dongen offers than Van Es, who by the way has 60-some caps for the Dutch and as far as I know started nearly every match at leftback for the team for two years or longer. So it's been a bit surprising. I don't think either Van Es or Van Dongen are especially good, really--they are OK: can we say more than that about either? I mean, if you are playing Belgium or New Zealand, say, then they are fine--but when you are trying to win a World Cup and playing the U.S., then one might say, "I wish we had better." Van Dongen struggled against Sweden---didn't have a good first half (said so herself), was a bit better in the second half--but gave up a LOT of corners on her side. Way too many. She almost never uses her right (weaker) foot--and you've got to use it drive inside sometimes to escape pressure or you get pinned at the touchline all the time, and she gets pinned a lot. Neither she nor Van Es are especially pacey, which is another issue. Van Es can deliver a nice ball into the box when she gets forward--she is a good crosser of the ball.

    I can't imagine using Van Es as a midfielder as I've never seen her play the position. That's not going to happen. Wiegman /could/ put Bloodworth in the midfield and move Dekker to centerback, but I'm quite sure that's not going to happen either. Dekker has started, what, one game--or two? She is pretty dependable but neither she nor Van de Gragt are especially agile and I think it would be risky to play them together. Bloodworth doesn't even play centerback for her clubs but has become a pretty polished and very important player at centerback for the Dutch, which is a credit to her athleticism, size and ball skills. She had a bad giveaway against Sweden, which was almost costly, but managed to recover. Otherwise, I think she and Van der Gragt have been a good and strong pair in this tourney.

    What the Dutch really need, going forward, in my opinion, is to find either a good young leftback for the future--or a good young centerback. The team would benefit from one of each, but even one would be helpful. If they can find another promising centerback, then Wiegman could move Bloodworth to leftback, where I think she could be very good--and I'm pretty sure she's played outside back (in addition to midfield) for her clubs. She's just a bigger and better athlete than either Van Es or Van Dongen, has good ball skills, a strong leg--and she's left-footed. Centerback and leftback are two positions of need. Dekker is 32 and so in the last stages of her career, and Van der Gragt has had injury issues--though I want to say that she has impressed me in this tournament; she's been good. Van Dongen can also play centerback--it might even be her preferred position, I'm not sure--but she seems like someone who, in a perfect world, would be a reserve and not a starter.

    I think the Dutch can play with the U.S. if they can get the ball into the middle of the pitch consistently and not spend a lot of time pinned in their own half of the field. Then we can press the Americans some and let our midfield do some good work.
     
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  22. L'orange

    L'orange Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Jul 20, 2017
    I forgot to mention, Van de Donk was interviewed today and called the U.S. players "rather arrogant." She's not wrong, that's for sure.
     
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  23. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    van Dongen had some really good tackles in the last 70 minutes of the match the other night. She's the weak spot and you never see the CBs passing to her because of her offensive limitations. I think she starts because he has been OK. A healthy Martens really makes a difference on the left side but that might not be in the cards tomorrow. It will be a major crime if Grönen and van Lunteren do not make the all tournament team. I can't think of a RB who has had a better all around tournament and Grönen has been great controlling MF play. van der Gragt has an outside chance as she has been very solid on defense but the others have all been average for me.
     
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  25. Ethan Frank

    Ethan Frank Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Jun 11, 2019
    If I correctly recall some commentary I've heard, this may even be a more natural position for Bloodworth than CB is.
     
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