The Myth of Messi

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by SayWhatIWant, Feb 8, 2025.

  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #326 carlito86, Jul 10, 2026
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2026
    Hi Micheal Jackson

    Can you sing this song too


    Where is Lionel Messi’s apology?
    Lionel Messi asked to apologize for Argentina players' racist chant | The Independent


    Why has the captain and alleged leader of the Argentina national team never until this day directly addressed the racist lyrics sung by his teammates?



    Is it really too much to ask Messi to simply state that those lyrics do not represent the values of the Argentine national team?


    Do those lyrics represent the Argentine national team’s values?

    Are you crazy enough Mr loco to admit that those lyrics do in fact represent the values of the Argentine national team ?


    Why was Enzo Fernández made the scapegoat for racist chants that were sung by multiple players, as is clearly visible in the video, rather than being treated as the responsibility of everyone involved?
    Enzo Fernández apologises to Chelsea teammates over racist chants | Chelsea | The Guardian


    The world is waking up


    So enjoy your happiness while it lasts
    IMG_8384.gif

    :thumbsup:
     
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  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    I’m still waiting for the part where you actually address the statistic:

    Lionel Messi has scored 1 non penalty goal from 33 shots across 10 World Cup games against Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, Croatia and France.

    The discussion was never about whether he contributed assists or wider playmaking value. It was about his goalscoring output against elite World Cup opposition. Explaining Argentina’s total goals or Messi’s overall involvement does not answer that specific question.

    He is the World Cup all time goalscorer so the enquiry is about his goals in World Cup tournaments.

    Do you understand this or are you an alien from a different planet?
     
  3. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    It is already perfectly addressed by lessthanjake. I am signing his words. I added more context to it.

    I mean, it is the obvious answer. Only those who would aim at undermining a specific player would put forth such an unreasonable, definitive, "playing-dumb" criticism.

    Btw, thank you for putting Croatia in a mix with football heavyweights lol
     
  4. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    To the extent you’re engaging in a good faith inquiry on this, I’d just note for you that only 11 of those non-penalty shots were inside the box. And even most of those were right at the edge of the box. The chances Messi got in those games were almost all very low-percentage chances. He still almost certainly underperformed his non-penalty xG in those games, because he only scored one non-penalty goal, but the very low-percentage shot diet is the main reason for what you’re pointing out.

    The bigger question is therefore what made his shot diet so low-percentage in those games. I’ve already explained a lot of it. He dropped deeper in tougher games to help the team in midfield, which resulted in his chances also coming from deep. The team also often engaged in very conservative/defensive tactics in those games (sometimes the whole game, and other times after getting a lead—including through penalty goals that we’re not counting here), which made it harder to get good chances and probably necessitated more speculative attempts. Relatedly, when the team is playing defensively, a lot of their shot attempts will just be off free kicks (often drawn by fouls on Messi), which was the case here.

    At the same time, even if the attempts were almost all quite low-percentage shots, there’s still a question of why he underperformed his xG. Normally Messi would probably get a wonder goal or two from those difficult attempts. Why didn’t he do that in these games? Well, one answer is just randomness. We are talking about a small sample of shots, so the results genuinely will be pretty random. Another answer is that these top teams tend to also have top GKs, who will generally make it hard to meet your xG against them. And that’s especially true of long shots where they have time to react (which, again, were a large percent of Messi’s attempts in these games). Great GKs minimize wonder goals a lot. This underscores a weakness of playing defensively and having Messi drop deep. A great GK can make it very difficult for that to result in goals for Messi. But Argentina largely needed to do this against those teams, since they didn’t have the solidity to keep possession and not be a sieve defensively if they didn’t (or at least they clearly didn’t trust that they did). And, to be fair, the tactics often did at least result in Messi getting assists, and also resulted in Argentina winning more of these games than they lost.
     
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  5. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Messi was benched in 2006 WC
     
  6. El_Bicho77

    El_Bicho77 Member

    Real Madrid
    Portugal
    Jun 26, 2026
    Indonesia
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Rooney were seen as better player that Ronaldo and Messi at that time. His performance in Euro 2004 as well 2004/05 season was enough to make people call him the "British Pele". I mean he literally scored a hattrick in his Champions League debut for United.
     
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  7. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Absolutely correct. Now I've got a dude who wasn't even born then telling us the opposite of what we all lived and saw.

    The dark truth is that the Messi "hype" campaign started when he signed his contract with Adidas in January 2006. When he entered contract negotiations is when Barcelona organized the photoshoot with FourFourTwo in the now famous magazine where "Ronaldinho introduces Messi". It may seem innocent at the time but this is the typical playbook (think Eminem introducing 50 cent, Lil Wayne introducing Drake - or in football - Using Zidane's image to springboard Bellingham's stardom in advertisement). None of this is organic and it was used to launch a future star - offering him leverage in contractual negotiations with Adidas. In 2005-2006, Messi was a youngster with energy and potential, but he was rough around the edges - both technically, physically (lacked sturdiness, was significantly slower than later years), and decision making. This isn't criticism - he was just 18. Rooney, on the other hand, was fully formed physically - a beast and was definitely seen on a higher level - whether this is due to English media influence is a diff story. Regardless, there is no perception of Messi as being on the level of Rooney/Lamine/Mbappe at the same age.
     
  8. genden7

    genden7 Member

    Oct 5, 2023
    #334 genden7, Jul 11, 2026
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2026
    Years pass and comrade carlito, serafim boy, isaywhatbsiwant trio is still trying to cope, lmaoooo.. imagine being generational WC flop penaldo fan trying to degrade Messi's WC performances in 2026)) Imagine being on a football forum for years and having to write about Messi 24/7 to cope.. lol..

    don't you have a job? send me your resume, I will help you.. Initially, I was laughing, but I now pity the situation you guys are in. Pretty sure, if I visit this forum 5 years later, will see this trio still talking about Messi 24/7, lmaooo... imagine the amount of the pain and suffering they have to endure seeing Messi dominance at 39 while their useless 20-touch per game idol getting exposed as usual and being shipped back home..

    Messi the WC GOAT records
    Most goals
    Most assists
    Most MOTM
    Most MVP
    Most big chances created
    Most chances created
    Most dribbles
    Highest per game rating in 2014 & 2022 & 2026


    Messi the WC GOAT vs pEnaldo the generational WC flop
    Overall: Messi 30 g&a ve penal 11 g&a
    Knockouts: Messi 14 g&a vs penaldo "1"
    Goals: Messi 7 ve penaldo 1
    MVP: Messi 2 vs penal 0
    etc
    etc

    Do you understand this or are you an alien from a different planet?
     
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  9. genden7

    genden7 Member

    Oct 5, 2023
    #335 genden7, Jul 11, 2026
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2026
    We are still waiting for an answer how you rate generational NT flop penaldo among all time greats with such shitty stats below.. above Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Gerd Muller, Eusebio, Garrincha, R9, Platini, Puskas etc.

    0 MVP in 17 tournament (6 Euros + 6 WCs)
    4 knockout goals in 23 games in 6 WCs + 6 Euros
    1 goal (penalty) in 9 WC knockout goals in 6 editions
    2 assists in 23 knockout games in 6 WCs + 6 Euros
    less successful dribbles than Cape Verde GK Vozinha, lmaooo

    Do you understand this or are you an alien from a different planet?
     
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  10. genden7

    genden7 Member

    Oct 5, 2023
    #336 genden7, Jul 11, 2026
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2026
    Dark truth master IsayWhatBSiWANTED is here too, what a surprise, lmaooo.. Send me your resume, I will get you a job too.. Unbelievable, these amigos are still on this forum 24/7 writing about Messi, imagine the trauma level Messi caused on them))

    this is some historic coping)) Adidas signed him because by 2005 everyone in football already knew he was a generational talent.

    Before that Adidas contract, 18-year-old Messi had already carried Argentina to the 2005 U-20 World Cup title, won both the Golden Ball as the tournament’s best player and the Golden Boot as its top scorer, and then won the 2005 Golden Boy award. Rooney won Golden Boy at 19; Messi won it at 18.

    Then there was the 2005 Gamper match against Juventus. Messi was so impressive that Fabio Capello asked Barcelona if Juventus could take him. BUT BUT DARK TRUTH ADIDAS))

    Ronaldinho, the reigning Ballon d’Or winner and best player in the world, was already telling people that Messi would become the best player in the world. He famously said that he was not even the best player at Barcelona let alone the world because of Messi. But apparently Ronaldinho watching and training with Messi every day knew less than some guy on the internet explaining the “dark truth” behind a FourFourTwo photoshoot 20 years later, lmaooo..

    "technically rough" Messi.. the dumbest take ever.. His close control, acceleration with the ball, balance and dribbling were exactly why Barcelona’s senior players, Capello and everyone who watched the Juventus match were already amazed by him.

    Once Messi reached 18, he won the U-20 World Cup Golden Ball, U-20 World Cup Golden Boot and Golden Boy in the same year. By 20, he was third in the Ballon d’Or and second in FIFA World Player voting, levels Rooney never reached at any age. BUT BUT DARK TRUTH ADIDAS))

    Not even talking about penaldo as he has no business at that age to be compared to Rooney or Messi.

    Again, send me your resume, lmaoooo..
     
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  11. Mister Football

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Jun 28, 2026
    It is possible that he was seen as the superior player then (debatable), but it's not only about reaching top level at a young age. You also have to maintain it.

    Pelé, Maradona, Ronaldo Nazário and Messi reached top level before or when they were 20 years old AND they managed to keep themselves in the conversation of world's best player for several years after reaching it.

    They practically never left the top after that (Ronaldo only did so because of career-ending injuries and still managed to exceptionally get back on top).
     
  12. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #338 lessthanjake, Jul 11, 2026
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2026
    Yeah, young Messi was definitely not technically rough. What prevented him from being one of the very best players in the world in 2006 was physical. SayWhatIWant is hopelessly anti-Messi to the point of making a lot of crazy claims, but he is actually right that Messi lacked sturdiness at the time. Barcelona had tried to ease him in relatively slowly, but even doing that he spent a lot of the 2006 calendar year injured. And they rarely played him the full match. He hadn’t yet developed enough physically to handle the rigors of constant matches—especially as a major dribbler who obviously was going to get fouled a lot. You can’t be one of the very best players in the world if you can’t play half the time and the other half the time your team is mostly unwilling to risk playing you the whole match. Once he became physically able to handle having tons of playing time, he was immediately one of the very best players in the world.
     
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  13. Mister Football

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Jun 28, 2026
    I've just checked the Ballon d'Or awards from 2004 to 2007 and Wayne Rooney is nowhere to be found.

    The maximum he achieved was an 8th position in 2004 and only showed up again at 26th three years later, in 2007.

    So that puts an END to the point some were previously making that Rooney was seen as superior to Messi when they were the same age.

    Messi was already in the Top 3 in 2007, at age 19-20.

    Rooney never came even CLOSE to being Top 3.
    At NO point in his career.
     
  14. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Michael Owen were ranked top 4 at age 18/19 in 1998 then won in 2001 at age 22
     
  15. Mister Football

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Jun 28, 2026
    Never managed to keep it up the way Pelé, Maradona, R9 and Messi did, though.

    And that is even more relevant than getting there just once.
     
  16. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015

    It's funny. If you look at this thread you will see posters on one side producing coherent, well-thought out, evidence-based posts. Nobody for a second denies that Messi is an all-time great (possibly the greatest depending on personal preference and subjective criteria). But if you bring up one argument because you disagree with myth-making and historical revisionism - the fanboys go into absolute psycho-mode mental breakdown, slobbering at the mouth and on the keyboard typing like 12 year olds on an MSN chat. It's so sad.

    Nothing, I said was false. Imagine saying "Penaldo". Do you realize just how damning and humiliating your post is to your own credibility? The lack of maturity, the slavish cultish psycho breakdown is embarassing. Have some decorum and dignity when you post please.

    I am not going to be lectured by a teenager as to how Messi was performing in 2005-2006.
     
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  17. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    He's not wrong about the technical level. The potential was there. Messi was courageous with his dribbling and obviously ahead of 99.9% of teenagers ever. But he often overhit the ball on controls, his shooting wasn't as good, his right foot was nonexistent, his passing repertoire lacked sophistication
     
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  18. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    “He’s not wrong”? Do you have another account you were trying to post on in support of yourself? Or am I misunderstanding what you’re trying to say?
     
  19. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Lmao every time a counterexample challenges your original claim, you introduce a new condition instead of defending the one you started with.

    You began by saying Pelé, Maradona, Ronaldo, and Messi were the only four players in history who were serious contenders for best in the world at 18 or 19 years old.

    I pointed out that Messi at 18 and 19 wasn't really in that conversation. Ronaldinho, Kaká, and Riquelme were clearly ahead of him at the time.

    After that, the discussion suddenly shifted to include age 20 because Messi's 2007 Ballon d'Or finish fit your argument better.

    Then I brought up Michael Owen and Lamine Yamal. Owen finished fourth in the Ballon d'Or while he was still 18, which directly challenged your claim that only those four players reached that level so young.

    Once Owen became a problem for your argument, another condition appeared. Now the discussion became about longevity and consistency, even though that wasn't part of your original claim.

    Can you see the pattern? The original discussion was about who was already a serious contender for best in the world at 18 or 19, not who had the best fifteen years career. Owen fits that description. Messi at that exact age doesn't.

    The problem is that every time the original claim runs into a counterexample, the criteria change. First it was 18 and 19. Then it became 20. Then it became longevity. If the standard keeps changing whenever a counterexample appears, there's no stable claim left to defend.
     
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  20. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Revisionism is almost exclusively what you do.

     
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  21. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #347 carlito86, Jul 11, 2026
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2026

     
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  22. El_Bicho77

    El_Bicho77 Member

    Real Madrid
    Portugal
    Jun 26, 2026
    Indonesia
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Messi at 17 years old only played a total of 76 minutes and scored 1 goal in la liga 2004/05 and yet somehow he was credited with winning that la liga title :cautious:

    Lionel Messi - Stats 2005 | Transfermarkt https://share.google/QV4kvQgmn0B5DxtMC
     
  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
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  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid


    The allegations remain undefeated.
     

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