Mbappe, yamine, cruyff, garrincha, best, van basten... There's lots... Just not as popular in today's media It's always the talent they had in comparison to their opponents at their time. If you watch the opponents Pele and Maradona faced you will laugh at how bad the general play was back then. Opponents were not optimized yet and the level is low. Like watching Royce Gracie beat all the "noobs" in UFC 1-4. They look like noobs now... But those opponents may have been the best of the best at the time. So Royce still deserves to be called the best of that era and best in history. He changed the sport "vale tudo" and the way people do mma forever. Even with his losses later, he did not retire early to keep his perfect record like some fighters now. Messi for sure is top ten. His position and utility also helps with the longevity.
Messi at 18-19 were considered a great talent but he weren't considered a real contender for best player itw. I mean, he completed 18 by june 2005 and 19 in 2006. By that time Dinho were undisputedly the best player itw. Back then Kaká also were a better player. Messi weren't even considered the best argentinian player (Riquelme). It's completely different with Pelé who actually were the best in 1958 setting the all time record for most goals at paulistao and winning world cup with a hat trick vs france os wc semifinal and 2 goals in the final vs sweden. R9 also were seen as a great talent but he had to prove himself out of eredivisie. The same for Maradona in 78. If he were really seen as the best player in the world he absolutely wouldn't be left out of wc 78 lol 18yo Yamal is far above 18yo Messi when it comes to global perceptios as best player itw. Last season yamal despite not winning bdo the general consesnus were that Dembelé only won because of the champions league but yamal were far better. By 2024 he already were a contender for best player on euros at 16 years old.
None of them was as good as Pelé, Maradona, R9 and Messi by age 18-19-20. Garrincha was not even a starter for Brazil at the 1958 World Cup, when he was already 24 years old. He was Top 3 at the 2007 Ballon d'Or, aged 20. So, yes, he was a serious contender already. Maradona's breakout seasons were in 1979 and 1980. After the 1978 World Cup (and his absence in it was HIGHLY contested at the time). Sorry, but that is a ridiculous comment from someone who wants to analize football historically. Pelé played against the best in his time and was far superior to all of them. The fact that he was so far above everyone else only adds to his favor, not against him.
Lamine coming in 2nd in the balon dor? He's only 18. Messi didn't make the podium for the balon dor until he was 20. Those three guys probably skipped class to practice ... You can't do that these days especially not in Spain. That era is gone unless you're growing up in a very undeveloped country. R9 is on video talking about how he wouldn't go to class to go play football in another city. I would disagree and say Cruyff was as good at that age. He practically grew up in the Ajax facility.
Well now you're expanding the criteria for 20 years old because you know at 18/19 they weren't as good as pelé lol
Data manipulation at its finest. Why should exclude the easiest shots in world football - a record missed pens?
Why are you guys even bringing up Yamal to the conversation? He is just getting started, no one knows yet what's going to happen. He could very well be put in the same group as the other four in the future. Besides, he will have to MAINTAIN his top level, like the Pelé, Maradona, R9 and Messi did for years (R9 only dropped his level because of his career-ending injuries). NB: Cruyff was NOT in the same league as the other 4 when he was under 20. He only started to be in the discussion for best player in the world in the early 70's.
He was not a contender in season 2005-2006 no matter how much you try to push it. These are the facts of the matter. Lamine, Rooney, Mbappe all much better.
I'm not expanding anything. They were all under 20 years old. Maradona had his breakout when he was 19, Pelé when he was 17. Messi was about 19-20. No big difference.
Why did you call me "silly boy"? Who the hell are you? I was civil in my answer. Guy shows up on this forum and thinks he is something.
If you go look back at the discussion you and I had about this in 2023, you’ll find it was always explicitly about non-penalty xG overperformance. This is specifically a follow on to that discussion. In any event, the post you quote of me explicitly provides the data including penalty goals too and discusses it, so you’re obviously making a nonsense criticism.
No nonsense claim at all? Im afraid you are harder to follower 3 years older than before and thats saying a lot.
Nope, your initial claim were 18/19 years old. Then I showed you Messi werent a contender on that age and now you changed to 20. Youre moving the goalspots to support your narrative. By 2005 Rooney were seen as Better than Messi.
Messi turned 20 in mid-2007, and finished that year at 3rd place at the Ballon D'Or (he was 19 until late June). You're trying to make a point based on a 6-month difference. Spare yourself, man.
I think Messi was eased into things at Barcelona a little slower than he could’ve been, because he’d been so small and they wanted to make sure his body could handle things. Relatedly, he did indeed also have injury issues as a teenager (i.e. for instance, getting injured multiple times in 2006, such that he only played like 23 matches for Barcelona in 2006). The result was that he only even played enough to really enter the conversation for best in the world at age 19. And he did indeed enter the conversation at that age (he was 3rd in Ballon D’or voting in 2007, in large part on the back of things he did in the first half the year at age 19–such as the Real Madrid hat trick). Given that he joined the conversation pretty much immediately when he played a full year, he might’ve entered that conversation at age 18 if he’d not gotten injured in 2006. But that’s not what happened, so we will never really know. In reality, someone like Yamal or Pele was indeed in the best-in-the-world conversation at a younger age (actually probably a couple years earlier for them).
Lionel Messi shots/non penalty goals in World Cup tournaments vs Germany The Netherlands France Croatia Belgium Switzerland Poland Vs Germany WC 2010 7 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs Germany WC 2014 4 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs The Netherlands WC 2006 1 shot 0 non penalty goals Vs The Netherlands WC 2014 1 shot 0 non penalty goals Vs The Netherlands WC 2022 6 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs France WC 2018 4 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs France 2022 5 shots 1 non penalty goal Vs Croatia WC 2018 1 shot 0 non penalty goals Vs Croatia 2022 2 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs Belgium 2014 2 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs Switzerland WC 2014 2 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs Poland WC 2022 7 shots 0 non penalty goals Overall 1 non penalty goal 42 shots 12 games = 0.08 non penalty goals per game 1 non penalty goal every 42 shots This is Lionel Messi’s goalscoring record in the actual World Cup ————————————— Lionel Messi shots/goals in World Cup tournaments vs Serbia Mexico Nigeria South Korea Greece Bosnia Iran Iceland Saudi Arabia Australia Austria Jordan Cape Verde Egypt Vs Serbia WC 2006 1 shot 1 non penalty goal Vs Mexico WC 2006 0 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs Nigeria WC 2010 8 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs south Korea WC 2010 6 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs Greece WC 2010 5 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs Mexico WC 2010 4 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs Bosnia WC 2014 4 shots 1 non penalty goal Vs Iran WC 2014 6 shots 1 non penalty goal Vs Nigeria WC 2014 4 shots 2 non penalty goals Vs Iceland WC 2018 11 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs Nigeria WC 2018 2 shots 1 non penalty goal Vs Saudi Arabia WC 2022 4 shots 0 non penalty goals Vs Mexico WC 2022 2 shots 1 non penalty goal Vs Australia WC 2022 6 shots 1 non penalty goal Vs Algeria WC 2026 6 shots 3 non penalty goals Vs Austria WC 2026 7 shots 2 non penalty goals Vs Jordan WC 2 shots 1 non penalty goal Vs Cape Verde 9 shots 1 non penalty goal Vs Egypt 5 shots 1 non penalty goal Overall 16 non penalty goals 92 shots 19 games = 0.84 non penalty goals per game 1 non penalty goal every 5.75 shots This is Lionel Messi’s record in the Europa League/Conference league version of the World Cup ———————————— This isn’t directed at anyone in particular, but if the shoe fits wear it. Please don’t resort to whataboutism. Cristiano Ronaldo can’t help you here. As many of you like to say the difference between Messi and Ronaldo is like night and day. With that in mind, Lionel Messi’s goalscoring record against traditional World Cup nations compared with his record against what are effectively Europa League/Conference League level teams masquerading as World Cup opponents still needs to be justified. And it needs to be justified on its own terms, without deflecting with “what about” arguments.
As said previously, Yamal can join the group if he MAINTAINS his level. Still too son to say it. Right now, his performance at the World Cup is way BELOW expectations.
Pelé was in the conversation at age 17-18 (1958-59) Maradona was in the conversation at age 19-20 (1979-80) Ronaldo was in the conversation at age 19-20 (1996) Messi was in the conversation at age 19-20 (2007) Yamal entered the conversation at age 18, but he still has to prove that he can MAINTAIN his level, like the other four did. If he does, he can join the group of the four extraterrestrials.
So there’s some validity to the underlying point you’re making about Messi scoring against lesser opponents in the World Cup. But I feel like you’re gilding the lily here. On what basis is Poland a “traditional World Cup nation”? You obviously included them there simply because Messi didn’t score against them on 7 shots. They’re really not better than some teams you included in the second list. For instance, 2022 Poland had a lower elo rating than 2022 Mexico and 2026 Austria, just to name the first two teams I checked. Similar thing could be said about 2014 Switzerland. They were not a traditional World Cup power. They were at least a bit better than 2022 Poland though. Also, I’m curious if you could tell me how many assists Messi had in the games you put in your first category. I count at least 5. Messi has tended to need to drop deep to help in midfield more against better teams, which will facilitate assists (which he had plenty of against good WC teams) but that positioning will also make him less likely to score and make his shots be more likely to be difficult ones.
lol Maradona weren't even called for WC 78. Messi also weren't that good on WC 2006 either. Yamal were one of the best players on euros 2024 and Pelé were at least top 3 at WC 58
Without resorting to whataboutism: Non penalty goals mean non penalty goals. And just for the record, non penalty goals are a metric your camp introduced and popularised. So you don’t get to selectively accept it when it suits your argument and dismiss it when it doesn’t. Own it, stand by it and apply it consistently in every single situation. Non penalty goals does not mean assists,pre assists or creativity Nor does it mean questioning my intentions or accusing me of having ulterior motives for including Switzerland and Poland as traditional World Cup opponents. To avoid any further debate, I will move the Switzerland and Poland matches from Group 1 into Group 2. Lionel Messi’s goalscoring record in World Cup tournaments vs Germany,The Netherlands,Croatia,Belgium and France 1 non penalty goal 33 shots 10 games 0.10 non penalty goals per game 1 non penalty goal every 33 shots =The real World Cup ————————- Lionel Messi’s goalscoring record in World Cup tournaments vs Switzerland,Poland,Serbia,Mexico,Nigeria ,South Korea,Greece ,Bosnia,Iran ,Iceland ,Saudi Arabia ,Australia ,Austria ,Jordan,Cape Verde and Egypt 16 non penalty goals 101 shots 21 games 0.76 non penalty goals per game 1 non penalty goal every 6.3 shots =The Europa league/conference league version of the World Cup
Indeed. Maradona's breakout season was in the following year, 1979. And Messi's was in 2007 (also after the World Cup). Do I really have to keep repeating myself?
The amount of non-penalty goals Argentina scored in the same matches that didn't involve Messi's input in terms of goals and assists: 4 Belgium 2014 France 2018 Croatia 2022 France 2022 From these games only, goals and assists, Messi's involvement is in 8 out of 12 goals Argentina scored in these games. 66,7% If we consider wider involvement than just goals and assists, Messi was involved in the Belgium 2014 goal (non-opta pre-assist) and the France 2022 goal (pre-pre-assist). Arguably involved in Alvarez's 1st goal against Croatia 2022 as well. Independent of that, he was involved in 66,7% of all goals against the selected teams. Only one of them was a non-penalty goal. Meaning, you are intentionally twisting the reality of it, which is that these tend to be extremely low-scoring matches, and Argentina hasn't relished (in the past) at creating chances in these games. Unless these chances came from Messi's foot (4 assists).