That's pretty much what I was saying about Valderrama's "long ball" type passes. The crazy back-spin is similar to Messi's signature pass. It's better than a classical long ball imo, but I wouldn't define it as a "long ball." Messi having received better education, and playing for a far greater team, has taken it to a new level. But besides Messi and Valderrama, I haven't quite seen other players who use that type of pass as consistently as Messi and Valderrama did. Particularly Messi, who does it pretty much week in week out. Maybe Andrea Pirlo is another such player, though I'm not entirely convinced about that (Pirlo's signature pass is slower, if memory serves me well). Ronaldinho might be another one of them type of passers.
Isn't out of the ordinary!?!? How many players have gotten Man of the Match awards 7 times in major NT tournaments? How many players have gotten MoM awards in 4 KO stage matches in major NT tournaments? How many players have gotten MoM in 2 major NT tournament finals? And how many players have gotten close to any of the stuff above AND been Man of the Match in a Champions League final? You are fond of talking about how much of a big game player Zidane was. Well guess what? Despite playing more major tournament matches, Zidane was only Man of the Match in 6 major tournament matches rather than 7. He only managed to equal Iniesta's total of 4 MoM awards in major NT tournament KO stage matches. He was Man of the Match in only 1 major tournament final, rather than 2. Both were Man of the Match in one CL final, but Zidane was legitimately not good in his other two finals, while Iniesta was brilliant in the other two. Yet somehow Zidane always delivers in big matches, while Iniesta's big match resume is overblown??? I don't buy it. You can nitpick the specific performances all you want, but there's not a lot of question that Iniesta was the MoM in those matches. You may say he didn't have a brilliant WC final outside of scoring the goal. But guess what? He did, in fact, score the World Cup winning goal. Zidane wasn't particularly memorable in the 1998 final either, outside of his two headers. Does that somehow make his Man of the Match award not count? No. Scoring the winner often makes you man of the match. And that's especially true in a type of match like Spain v. Netherlands where the match was allowed to get pretty ugly and full of fouls, so no one was really able to stand out. I do think Xavi was better than Iniesta outside of the goal, but Iniesta scored the goal that won the World Cup and Xavi did not. Don't act like such a football hipster that that somehow doesn't matter. You can also try to nitpick against the award in the 2015 CL finals, but there was a general consensus that Iniesta was the best player of the match; it wasn't his most brilliant performance ever, but you cannot take away from the fact that the general consensus is that he was the best player on the pitch in a Champions League final. The fact that he did that in a season where he was not otherwise very good just further demonstrates how good of a big game player he is.
not only in 2007 libertadores, in 2007 copa america, he was a monster conclusion, 2007 could be his best season in his entire career
@ko242 Reading over what I wrote above, I think perhaps it came off as a bit aggressive/obnoxious. Please don't take it that way. I didn't mean it to be unfriendly; I just was meaning to express my views a bit bombastically.
Iniesta is incredibly difficult to measure imo. He's "the comedian that comedians like to watch" imo essentially. As good a dribbler as he is, he simply isn't fast enough nor physically big enough to do them Figo/Zidane type runs. His passing doesn't seem to be on the same level as that of Totti or Messi, but he's so intelligent at picking his passes that, at least back when he was at his best, he was creating just as many chances as passers whom are supposedly better at the art. (note: Champions League 2011/2012, Chelsea vs Barcelona 1-0) The 1st play on the video (ends at 00:28) -- Iniesta creates a "one-on-one-vs-the-GK" type situation. The pass itself is nothing particularly impressive, but the chance itself was arguably clearer/easier than the chances that are created via amazing passes. Sums up Iniesta's entire game. And that was Iniesta's signature pass. It isn't an impressive nor a memorable passing style, but it gets results. Against a team that was "Messi's bogey team," Iniesta started the game by creating a relatively easy chance, and then proceeded with a very solid performance, with even a "very difficult flair-skill" a few minutes after the pass above. (note: La Liga 2011/2012, Barcelona vs Valencia 5-1) Starts at 04:07 (ends at 04:40) -- Essentially the same pass, which imo clearly is Iniesta's signature pass. And this time, it also wasn't converted into a goal. (note: La Liga 2010/2011, Sevilla vs Barcelona 1-1) Starts at 01:25 (ends at 02:12) -- This assist or "end product" by Iniesta, never happened as far as the data/paper work is concerned. But this was arguably more of an assist, than it was a pre-assist. This is end product, of the type that gets readily disregarded. And it also sums up how players like CR7 can have so many assists. Bottom Line -- Iniesta isn't a particularly impressive/memorable passer (when compared to the greatest legends of the art), but in the 2011-12 days he arguably created just as many chances as Pirlo or Fabregas did at the time. In fact, I'm also under the impression that Iniesta 2011-12 created as many chances as Laudrup 1992-93 (even though Laudrup was clearly more memorable with how he styled the architecture for said purpose). Of course, I must readily admit that that last assertion about Laudrup wasn't based on any formal research on the actual numbers, but merely based on my "I'm pretty sure that that's what actually happened" mental-notes after having watched many of their respective performances.
much bigger reaction than i was expecting but speaking of zidane, i never really thought zidane had an outstanding CL match in the knockout stage. In fact, Iniesta has surely had more better CL showings and el classicos than Zidane. No question?! even when Zidane scored that CL final goal in 2002, i thought he had an average performance at BEST! i acknowledge, that the reason zidane is regarded so highly is because of his achievements at NT level. before, i used to think that zidane's role on the NT was 'more of a one man wrecking crew' as opposed to rather 'the best attacking player on a very good team'. because of my arguments and debates with yourself (@lessthanjake) and @leadleader it has really changed my perspective on zidane and I dont rate him nearly as high as I used to. In terms of some of the performances of Iniesta that I did not rate so highly, maybe its because my standards for him are a little bit higher. Perhaps, he deserved MOM in CL 2015, and against Chelsea 2009 (though i think he didnt, regardless of the general census) but when I think of a match worthy of MOM performances from Iniesta, I just expect a little more from the fella.
I completely understand. my love for this game is unconditional. we all get mad and may say things we dont mean at times, but i know its because you have a love and passion for the game that excites a lot of emotion.
Fair enough. It is certainly true that there's a difference between Iniesta's CL 2015 final and a super dominant MoM performance. Not all MoM performances are equal, and if your point is that not all of Iniesta's MoM performances were super dominant ones, then I agree. But I guess I would also say that I can't think of any midfielder in history that has a very significant number of super dominant MoM performances in major NT tournaments and CL finals. That's a really high standard (which you acknowledge, so I'm not being critical). For me, it's enough that Iniesta has had more big matches where he was the best guy on the pitch than pretty much any midfielder (or attacker/defender for that matter) I can think of. It's perfectly reasonable for you to point out that not all those matches were out-of-this-world legendary performances. I guess I'm saying that I know that, but I still think that Iniesta's big game resume ranks among the very best of all time.
Ajax at Juve vs United, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Monaco while at Madrid. Zidane has quite a few outstanding KO matches. His performance vs Ajax in 96/97 at home is timeless.
vs United, Bayern Munich, and Barcelona, while at Madrid... I've never seen the hype about those matches. Zidane scored a decisive goal vs Barcelona (is that the game we're talking about?), but otherwise did very little of note imo. His performance vs United was, again, imo what prime Iniesta did pretty much on a routine basis. And the Bayern Munich performance (2002 or 2004, it makes no difference to me) is another one I don't regard as a "big game performance." I've honestly never seen Zidane as a "big game player" at club level. All his Clasicos vs Barcelona were decidedly unremarkable, with the exception of just the one that was somewhat good (but definitely far from a great performance). His CL KO matches are overrated imo, with fans paying a lot of attention to the class and elegance (read: them youtube moments), but not really paying attention to the fact that Zidane, a playmaker, hardly created any half-chances (let alone clear-chances) for his teammates. I'd have to re-watch those games, but I've never gotten the hype about those "Zidane big games."
I would add his performance vs Dynamo Kiev (with Shevchenko at its heart) in the CL 97/98 QF to that. This same Dynamo Kiev had beat Figo and Rivaldo's Barcelona 7-0 across two games in that year's CL group stage and went on to knock out the reigning champions Real Madrid at the QF stage in the next campaign. Also, because it was in the UEFA cup, his performance vs Milan with Bordeaux in the QF in 95/96 tends to get overlooked. Lastly, in case of NT tournaments and motm awards, it seems that Zidane should definitely have more than 6, considering that WC 98 is not being taken into account due to official motm awards only being handed out by FIFA from WC 02 onwards. IIRC Kicker gave him motm in 2 of the games from WC 98. Adding these to Zidane's tally of 6 official motms gets us 8 motm awards across NT tournaments with 5 coming in the knockout stages.
I suppose it comes down to great performances vs very good performances, but anyway I think Zidane tended to play let's say well to very well vs Manchester United in a Juventus shirt too didn't he. This time I think it's obvious this video only shows his good touches but I think it's probably a performance to add to the others mentioned (a positive one, and the extent of that is then what is to be debated as with some others including I suppose the 2002 Final):
I'd have to re-watch the ones vs Bayern and Barcelona, but I watched both matches vs United fairly recently and really both are up there with Iniesta's best, I'm trying to remember if Iniesta has such a performance vs an opponent of same level in the CL KOs. I'm convinced Iniesta hasn't a performance in the KO stages close to Zizou vs Ajax though.
I think Iniesta vs Chelsea (2011-12 away game) is as good or better than both of Zidane's performances vs Man Utd. That being said, Chelsea 2011-12 on paper isn't as strong as Man Utd 2002-03 (even though Chelsea 2011-12 did win the CL against all odds, whereas Man Utd 2002-03 was eliminated in the Quarter Finals). Zidane's performance vs United looks good on youtube, but I watched the complete game about a year ago, and found it to be good, but nothing better than what Iniesta was doing pretty much week in week out in 2010-11 and 2011-12. I was expecting a better game from Zidane (in part, because the youtube video created the illusion that it was a better performance, and when I watched the full 90 minutes, it really wasn't as good as it looked in youtube). But is it even possible, even for Zidane, to replicate what he did vs Ajax, if Zidane was playing second-fiddle behind Messi? IMO, Zidane might score the goals still, even if he played in the same team as Messi; but in a team with Messi, Zidane would never be allowed to have that much time/monopoly on the ball. In this regard, I strongly believe it is unfair to say that "Zidane vs Ajax is something Iniesta has never done..." Iniesta isn't allowed that much time on the ball, he plays second-fiddle behind Messi. I mean, I feel as though such a comparison is an apples and oranges type argument. If Iniesta was made the focal player of his club, and if his club was like Juventus 1995-96 (which won the CL without Zidane), in such highly specific circumstances I believe that prime Iniesta would be well capable of producing a "Zidane vs Ajax" of his own. Of course, Zidane being faster and bigger than Iniesta, will always be the more impressive player at least on the surface, because it's pretty much always more impressive to watch a player who can do the dribbling runs like Zidane, which are dribbling runs that a player with Iniesta's pace and size cannot really do. Iniesta can pull off a dribbling run like the one vs PSG, but he won't be out-running past defenders like Zidane in full-flight could.
The key might then might be how Zidane performed when Del Piero was around, I know ADP wasn't there vs Ajax and other notable Zidane performances such as vs Milan 97/98 (Away), vs Roma 00/01 and PSG in the Super Cup. In the 97/98 SF vs Monaco (home), Zidane had a very good performance but was overshadowed by Del Piero (3 goals and an assist) so I definitely see why that view is valid, but I'll look into matches where they both played. In the Intercontinental Cup final vs River Plate they both played and both shined, I personally have Del Piero just shading it in terms of who was MotM. About number of touches / seeing a lot of the ball, I'm sure Iniesta used to see more of the ball pre-Luis Enrique, more than Messi that is, and Zidane/Iniesta play, normally, around the same position. Whatever the starting position, I see them favouring that 'half space' towards the left.
Yup and that's quite a good memory that you are displaying. Zidane also has another great assist to Inzaghi from open play, completing the assist hattrick from a corner kick. All this while playing away at Kiev. The match was seen by some as a turning point for Juventus, for that season. ADP was there in the above Dynamo Kiev game (which comes during what probably was ADP's best season of European football). And he was there too away at Parma in the 99/00 season (great Zidane performance against a top defensive opponent in the Serie A that one).
Will have to try find this match. Always remembered the crazy assist and Del Piero's left footed finish but not much else.
Yeah, that's a really good performance, although to be fair to the 2002 CL final performance, that Bayer team was playing extrordinarily well and were really up for the game considering that they had lost both the league and cup in Germany in the final of games of those competitions for that season. In any case, another example is I think the performance at home in the loss vs Manchester United in 98/99. Noteworthy, considering that he was playing with a bad knee (had it bandaged in the first leg in Manchester and went for surgery on it after Juventus were knocked out), Juventus as a team was in a crisis in terms of form and injuries and considering that Manchester United were doing very well that season and Keane was having one of the greatest games of his life. This version seems to cut the video at weird points (skipping both poor and sometimes great actions), but its the most complete one available online. He can be seen being part of some great plays at 0:36, 0:49, 2:57, 4:29, 4:53, 5:55 and 6:54, also being at the receiving end of some rough tackles at 3:18 and 6:25. He also himself had a nasty high boot at 7:13 against, who I think is Beckham, near the end of the game. Looking at these now and thinking about his other performances vs English opposition, I wonder if him being French had a particular influence, when he was playing against English club teams and against the English NT.
Also noteworthy is the defensive workrate (especially in the first half when the match was more cagey) and the poor condition of the pitch. Lastly, considering the source of this video compilation, those are probably all of his touches. Assists at 1:38, 3:59 and 5:27. ADP and Inzaghi were pretty great themselves in this game (Inazghi with the hattrick and ADP with that finish and an assist and pre-assist).
Yeah that sort of play at 5:55 is a bit of a trademark of his I'd say. I don't know, I suppose English teams would often be considered 'big' opposition but might not man mark players as much as teams from certain other nations in Europe so perhaps a big occasion but without someone specifically targeting him for attention (not that it would be easy or comfortable on the same pitch as a player like Keane, but in that game I suppose he was also busy trying to move United forwards) could be a combination that saw him thrive? As a Zidane fan, do you feel his performances during the 97/98 run or the 01/02 run were more impressive (not necessarily game by game but on the whole)? I guess it could be like comparing WC98 and Euro 2000 where the Final was more impressive in one year (1998 WC, 01/02 CL) but overall performances in another? Perhaps a closer call I dunno, but thought that could be an interesting question to get an opinion on from you.
Possibly. I see the English game (especially defensively) being a bit less technical than the French and a bit more clean than the Italian/German defending of that time, while being a bit higher tempo than both. Maybe Zidane preferred that sort of combination. It's a tough call really even though statistically his time at Juve was stronger. Since IMO he was at a pretty high level throughout, during all three of the seasons wherein his teams reached the CL final. I can say I prefer to watch his 02' version though for its greater polish brought about by experience and four to five more years of practice, which basically was his peak game play. At certain points it looked extraordinarily smooth.
Thanks mate - yes, I know you have said before you would have wished he'd played in the 2002 World Cup and fully fit. The sort of performance he gave in Kiev (end product wise and generally) would probably make it close to call I guess.