There are two discussions going on: the most complete attacker and the footballer with the best all-round abilities.
Are these the best players of certain eras or most complete? Zidane and Figo 2001-2010? Weren't both these guys retired well before 2010... From this list, Di Stefano, Cruyff and Beckenbauer stand out. Based on how Messi evolves later in his career he could be involved. I agree with @Puck and @BadaBing on Messi's "evolution" ... he was always capable of threading passes and games like the 5-0 Clasico showed the playmaker side of him but since his return from injury (6/7) games, he's taking on the role more visibly, his chance creation and dribbling is a touch higher but we'll wait and see how long this trend lasts. Messi's perceived power re: the coach sounds preposterous to me. I dont think Tata's tactics are favouring him. Cesc, Sanchez and Pedro are probably the happiest whereas Messi and Iniesta even injuries aside are having to somewhat adapt.
People are still confused .... between "complete player " (absolute meaning) and "complete players at their position" 1- Complete player (by pure meaning of any one's book): Di Stefano, Hidegkuti, Didi, Duncan Edwards, Pele, Rivelino, Boby charlton, Cruijff, Zico, Platini, Gullit ... These ones can play reasonable good to great at ANY POSITION (from striker to AM, to CM, to defender) 2- Complete player in his position/role: - COMPLETE Attacker: (here many) like Rivera, Meazza, Puskas, Eusebio, G Best, Ressenbrink, Jaizinho, Tostao, Maradona, Basten Romario Baggio Ronaldo Zidane Figo Henry Raul Sheva Nedved ... to lately Messi and CR7 These ones can play reasonable good to great at ATTACKING position (CF, FW, AM) - COMPLETE defender: Beckenbauer, N Santos, Carlos Alberto, Passarella, Baresi, Scirea, Krol, Maldini, Koeman, Thuram .. ... and arguably ... Lahm, Canavaro, Bergomi, These ones can play reasonable good to great at ANY POSITION in defense (L R CB or libero DM).
Good question. In fact (almost as a fact) that Messi ENJOYED and ACHIEVED everything with that tikitaka at Barca ... (Rijkaard and the Pep did a great job to start building up Barca core team with such "possession tactics" (a la Cruijff total football) with Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Busquet, Pedro ... and of course Messi - Barca system (NOTE ... Messi won nothing with Argentina - besides Olympics against semi-pro players)
http://talksport.com/football/xavi-...nos-quest-balance-barca-continues-13111167740 This article touches on it, albeit vaguely. From day one, Martino spoke of "verticality" i.e getting the ball to the front three as quick as possible. Any casual observer would agree that Cesc is more direct than Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets. Busquets is the deep-lying mid though so his position was secure, Xavi remains the best ball mover and therefore he kept his place. The last spot in midfield is now seemingly expected to be the guy who gives that "vertical" thrust and Iniesta's style is abit different. As the guy in the article says, in the 12th paragraph that starts "That struggle is understandable..." that Iniesta and Xavi have been "programmed... to pause, organise and think..." I thought Xavi would struggle more with the changes but it seems Iniesta is finding it more difficult currently, perhaps due to injuries not giving him a consistent run of games. Messi on the other hand likes to receive the ball to feet. In a pure counter-attack system like Argentina's he excels, but in Tata's tiki taka variant I feel he is not 100% comfortable leading to this new quasi-role he is adopting. He wants the ball to feet in the 3rd quarter but the team is now engineered to get the ball further forward and quicker too, unlike Pep's patient approach which was tailored for Messi, goalscoring wise anyway.
Your lists read like a list of greatest ever rather than most complete, unless the two overlap? First on the most complete players, Di Stefano and Cruyff were total footballers and roamed the pitch effecting every phase of the game. Naturally those two stick out. Gullit could play several positions at World Class level. I dont know much about Didi besides the world cups but guys like Zico and Platini surely are not amongst the most complete players ever. They are classical number 10s with a great eye for goal but their defensive game was weak IMO. For example, George Best is more comfortable in CM than either which to me indicates better defence. He's obviously a superior winger and atleast equal as a support striker. How are they more complete? Your attackers list is far too random to analyse. For the defenders, I co-sign Beckenbauer, Krol, Maldini, Thuram and perhaps Carlos Alberto. Scirea is my favourite defender ever but I've never thought of him as being complete.
In other words most complete attacker, and most complete footballer. I don't see why only attacker is discussed, if we follow that line then what about: - most complete defender? - most complete midfielder?
I'm not sure about this, especially the first category seems pretty questionable (regarding inclusions, exclusions and the definition). I mean, Pele as a defender? What makes you think that he is "good to great" as def, but, say, Messi isn't? In the modern game, nobody plays in all the positions. Complete player, thus, to me, doesn't mean that you can play in all the positions, but rather that you are a) great at what you do, and b) you do many things.
James uses hyperboles that were used to describe Pele as the backbone of his arguments. For example, he may have read "Pele is so great he could do anything he wants on the field, in any position" For him this suffices as evidence that Pele was a great defender.
^ I guess. Like some could say Maradona was so great that he'd obviously make a great coach. A complete "player".
Since the title of the topic is The most complete player of all-time, I think it's safe to assume we ought to discuss the most complete players in every single aspect of the game, bar goalkeeping, for reasonable reasons. Now, if you lot really believe Messi is more complete than Maldini...
For what it's worth, I would be looking for the following for a player to be described as complete: Physical - the player would be quick and strong, although not necessarily a physical "beast". Also good in the air. Technical - excellent passing (short and long) and dribbling skills coupled with the ability to tackle and break up play. Versatile - a proven ability to play defensive and offensive roles (although not necessarily playing in defence and up front) at the same point in his career. He would be a threat in and around both his own and the oppositions penalty box. Two footed - players that rely on just one foot cannot be described as complete. Ideally the player would be completely at ease with either foot, but I would expect him to be more than competant with his weaker side. A goalscorer - while he doesn't have to be prolific, he needs to be someone who is recognised with above average scoring for his position. No obvious weakness/deficiency in his game. You're generally going to be looking at midfielders as complete players, as anyone with the all round skillset required to be considered "complete" would be able to contribute most in that position. You would feel comfortable if he dropped back to strengthen the defence when under pressure and recognise that he could make a difference if pushed further up the pitch.
because you have never watched Pele . Messi defensive skill is like 4.5/10 Pele was like 7/10 , Cruiff 8/10, Di Stefano 7.5/10, ... What defines a "modern game"? Since 60's no one played in all positions already (tactics improved) Clueless comment I said Messi was among the "complete attacker" (just like Ronaldo CR7 Zidane Ronaldinho .... ) taht's all and that's it
In fact, Pele was the OFFICIAL 3rd GK of Brazil NT from 62-70 - note 90+% (almost 99%) all teams go to a tournament with 3 GKs. Brazil NT 62-70 came to WC with 2, as they counted Pele (at very worst case) would play as (3rd) GK/sweeper for them
In 1962 five of the sixteen teams only took two keepers. In 1966 it was three teams. That's 25% of the teams.
yes 25% of the teams in THAT PERIOD, what about the REST of the teams of in WC history? what about the rest of other tournaments besides WC??? READ WELL and THINK
Messi can go ahead and practice for years ... but NO TEAM will use him as GK period. Pele did a GK in a Snatos game and he SAVED a pk ... and led Santos won the game at the end 1-0