The most complete player of all-time?

[Your three categories make more sense to me, mate. I don't think that anyone was trying to give you stick, yonko: we were just trying to figure out what you meant by the title & topic of your thread.]

 

When i read your thread I was thinking something like:
a) Player with better skillset (the most gifted player)
b) Player who can excelled in various positions (specialist).
c) Player who was omnipresent on the pitch (all around player).

In a) category could fit players like Pele, Best

In b) category could fit players like Matthaus, Charles, Beckenbauer

In c) category could fit players like Di Stefano, Cruyff

 

Gerrard

 

[Gerrard isn't fit to lace Robin Friday's boots, mate!! & ]

 

Remember Don Alfredo "La Saeta Rubia" always said that the best team he Ever played for was River Plate 45-47 and that the greatest player he ever saw and remember he has seen Pele,Puskas,Eusebio,Best,Charlton,Cruyff,Maradona and Messi was Adolfo Pedernera one of the greatest forward line to ever play LA MAQUINA

 

Noone yet mentions Maradona, his preternatural talent makes him a victim of his own standards. But in the truest sense of the concept, Maradona was the most complete footballer of all time: he could destroy you with dribbling, passing, shooting, set pieces, even headers, and he could do it from virtually anywhere in the pitch. Also, an underrated aspect of his game was his defense - which he often did until at least WC 90.

 

[Yeah, that's fine, mate; I think that some of us were confused by your wording of the phrase "most complete player" in the thread starting post, which is bound to happen around here.]

 

my saying is based strictly on Yonko's criteria which are purely applicable and favourable to attacking attributes - he never put any defensive attributes there.

 

Complete defensive player IMO would be someone who
-has the qualities of an aggressive centre back (i.e. heading, strong tackling, strength)
-combined with the qualities of a more cultured centre back (i.e. positional sense, interceptions, standing tackles)
-is quick (able to play in a high defensive line)
-is comfortable on the ball (forward passing, spreading the play, dribbling ball out of defence, scoring goals)

I don't know if such a player has ever existed, maybe some of the historical experts like comme can help us out?

 

From what I've read and seen, Charlton was basically an old version of Michael Ballack/Paul Scholes, an attacking midfielder with good range of passing (good but not excellent creativity) and excellent long range shots/late runs into the box, wasn't much of a dribbler, not sure how good he was on set pieces, didn't help out much defensively.

Bergkamp was not very complete, lacked dribbling, set piece ability, acceleration (he had good top speed but couldn't burst past a player), he was a good finisher but wasn't particularly great at getting into goalscoring positions (I'm basing this on post-Ajax career), didn't score much with his head. What he did have was exceptional first touch (including first-time shots), exceptional killer passes, exceptional creativity and imagination, and also good shot from around the edge of the box.

Dalglish had an excellent goalscoring record for such a creative player, haven't seen much of him play so can't offer judgement on his all-round game.

 

I would venture to say that Bobby Charlton was one of the finest long passers in the history of the game. His long passes were very precise and he could spray them very well. His touch was also very subtle. Just last week I watched a 1968 league game involving Manchester Utd. and again he had one perfect long pass hit delicately with the outside of his right foot towards the right flank directly into the path of George Best. The execution and precision of that pass was marvellous.

 

[Once again it's Gregoriak to the rescue w/a well-timed observation!

Mr. Renoog, it seems fairly obvious that you've only seen highlights of Charlton in action from about '65-'66 onwards or so. Unfortunately, Charlton's athletic & physical peak started to fade somewhat early in his career almost certainly due to complications from surviving the '58 Munich air crash & the rigours of playing week-in & week-out in a top flight that was much less gentle than the modern version IMO.

During his physical peak, Bobby Charlton was unleashed lightning w/the ball @ his feet. Charlton spent much of his earlier career @ Utd. as a left-winger & was even capped in the position on several occaisons by England. In recalling what a brilliant player on the ball that Charlton was, George Best was quoted as saying that he never saw a player who could get past opponents as easily as Charlton could, & this included Best HIMSELF.

Then, obviously, as Charlton's physical abilities began to fade he was forced to re-invent himself as the "old fox" of both Utd. & England that you & Gregoriak were talking about. Due to matches becoming much easier to capture on camera as the '60s went on & Charlton winning the bulk of his team & solo awards, the WC & the Ballon d'Or in '66, England taking 3rd place in Euro '68, etc., younger fans tend to have never seen the younger, more dynamic version of Charlton in action.

Despite what the title says, this is quite a bit of footage fr. the '57 FA Cup Final where Villa def. Man. Utd. 2-1. Bobby Charlton was wearing the No.10 shirt for Utd. on that day, so be on the look-out for him:

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=64983

As an aside, there's also footage of tragic early losses Duncan Edwards & Tommy Taylor in action in the above clip as well: Edwards was wearing the No.6 shirt for Utd. & Taylor the No.9.

This is footage of the actual '58 FA Cup Final when Bolton def. Utd. 2-0 w/both goals being scored by the great Nat Lofthouse. Charlton is wearing the No.9 shirt for Utd:

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=35187

As another aside, there's also footage of the recently deceased "Lofty" in action here as well, including the OTHER goal that he scored in the Final. Don't forget that this footage was shot on film cameras of the time, so you must correct for the "live look" of today, if yk how to do that.

This is good match info on both the '57 & the '58 FA Cup Finals:

http://www.fa-cupfinals.co.uk/1957.htm

http://www.fa-cupfinals.co.uk/1958.htm

I'll try & find footage of Charlton in action when he was closer to his athletic prime. Gregoriak or Mr. Renoog, just lmk if you have any questions regarding "Sir Bobby" or what I just posted.]

 

Well, in fact there are even more requirements to what you listed. On top of them;
1- Vision (or reading games , so that he can play differently - more center, or more wide, or more advance or deeper ...)
2- Intelligence (in decision making when to pass and when to clear off, or when to tackle, and when not ...)
3- Tackling skills
4- Intercept skills (to intervene passes or block a good dribbler)
5- dribbling skills (as a big plus need, but not necessary)
...

A few names: Beckenbauer, Passarella, De Guia, Scirea ... who could match all of those requirement

 

Yeah but on average games, earlier in his career, he played more as striker. Later on he adopted a more playmaking and creative role and connected more with his fellow strikers, point in case 70 WC. It's similar to how Messi has adopted more of a playmaking role in more recent times.

 

Other SA defenders who could match, were Figueroa, Chumpitaz & Luis Pereira

Pele at his early years played in a double spearhead partnership, but this doesn't mean that he was striker.
Pele was always #10 or Second Striker. Later he played deeper like a playmaker or attacking mid.

The #9 shirt were weared by Vava/P.Valentim in NT and for Santos club Coutinho/Toninho. These were playing more like a striker position although they weren't a poscher type of players.

 

Yeah .. I forgot about Figueroa, and Pereira. I did not see much of Chumpitaz though! Maybe you can help ...

 

[What did wearing the No.9 shirt usually mean in Brazil back in those days, msioux?]

 

I agree wih Roy and Argentinesoccer...

For the world: Pele has define how and what a #10 footballer shall be (meaning the best player of the team - not neccessary playmaker. nor forward)

Maradona (and Zico) promoted #10 to be reserved for playmaker ...

Number #9 in the past, did not mean much.... as Juste fontaine, Muller wore #13. Cruijff worn #14. Puskad #10. Di Stefano, Eusebio #9, Basten #12 and Romario #11 ...

Arguably, Ronaldo has made a trademark in modern football that #9: as main striker or center foreward

 

Blanc had those abilities as well.

 

I agree with you about Blanc's skill ability, but I would not put his name next to the likes Figueroa, Passarella, Scirea and the great Beckenbauer . He is still 1 level lower, but admittedly his style was close to the above