Disclaimer: If you're just gonna come in here and talk about who's 'fickle' or who's a 'hardcore fan'(to cover up the fact that you're incapable of carrying on intelligent and in depth discussion about the team and it's formations etc), don't bother to post. This isn't a pointless thread. It is one way I deal with bad results. Instead of going ******** ******** ******** ******** ******** ******** ******** I'll try to analyze what went wrong and what we could've done. It could make for some quality discussion. I'll try to bump the thread whenever we have a bad result. On to the topic. Manchester United, a team synonymous with excitement, attacking flair and drama. It's why we love them, why we support them, but this team is also capable of completely self destructing in the most spectacularly infuriating ways that leave you scratching your head. Sometimes it's down to not getting the rub of the green, but most of the time, it's down to, well, boneheaded managerial decisions. Now I'm not saying we should be immune to defeat. I'm not saying that we can't drop points to determined or superior opposition once in a while. But when you're the architect of your own downfall, throwing up your hands and saying "Well, it just didn't happen for us today, tough luck." just isn't good enough. For the amount of money we shell out in the transfer market, I don't think it's a stretch to expect the management to build a team that's extremely hard to beat and can put the teams that they are expected to beat to the sword, while striking fear into teams that would be considered on equal footing. Yet, time and again, we seem to lose or drop points to teams we shouldn't, and we definitely don't strike fear into our fellow high profile peers. The reality is, as of now, our 'team' is a collection of 2 world class defenders, wing forwards, support strikers and deep lying midfielders all being forced to fit into a childish 4-4-2. 7 year olds could come up with better formations for their team on Fifa. Sometimes that is enough to get us by, hell, maybe even trounce the odd minnow, but then there are certain times when we come up against a well organized, tactically superior, physically superior and determined opposition. Then it all goes down the crapper. Players get marked out of games. People give the ball away. Folks start flapping their arms and making puppy faces at the ref. And I, well, I shatter another electronic device into a thousand pieces. Before I move on to my next segment, let me remind you all of something that happened last summer that really pretty much sums up my feelings toward the management of the club. After we sold Kieran Richardson(muffled cheers), Fergie came out in the press and made a comment about how the fans were constantly on Richardson's back, and no player could develop in that type of environment. Now when he said that, it sounded as if he actually would've preferred to keep Richardson and was disappointed in the fans for 'forcing' him to sell a great young talent... No comment. Back on topic. Now to understand why we witness boneheaded decisions at times, we have to look into the mentality of our manager. The Legend Sir Alex Ferguson The Good Excellent man manager. (used to be)Excellent with young players. Fiercely loyal. The Bad Tactically naive 95% of the time. Fiercely loyal to the players he likes, despite any negative effect those players might have on team performances. Slow to make changes.(a more recent trend) Stubborn as an ass. Makes the same mistakes over and over and over again. (For you simpletons out there, don't confuse constructive criticism with "Fergie Out!" cries) That being said, I still love the guy the death, but I also hate his faults. I really, really hate them, because they usually combine to result in us having results like the one we had today.(what on earth happened there?) Now, let's take a step back to last summer. We had just won the title and were looking to consolidate our place at the top. We knew we needed a striker or two. We lost 3 strikers, and signed one. I'm not going to lie, I was as excited as a pre-pubescent girl when I found out we signed Nani, Anderson and Tevez. Finally! I thought, we were finally sprinkling our squad with that European class that could push us over the top in the Champions League, and have us playing what DS calls 'Futsal' in the process. Fanboy optimism aside, there were some deadly faults in this plan. Depending on Saha to be fit for more than 2 minutes. We signed 2 support strikers when we already had one in Rooney. First gripe. Who, in their right minds depends on a player that has proven over the course of a few seasons that they cannot stay fit for any sustained period of time? Second gripe. Why go through so much trouble to sign Hargreaves if you don't ever intend on using him properly? It's becoming clearer after every game that Ferguson actually bought Hargreaves to partner someone else in a midfield two in a 4-4-2.. What?.. So not only do we harm our attack by not signing a proper #9, we harm our midfield by misusing a midfielder we just signed... THIRD gripe. Where's the faith in our youngsters? Why hasn't Simpson started more games? So what if he'll mess up now and then, how else is he supposed to learn what not to do, if he isn't allowed to make mistakes in the first place? I'm absolutely SICK of seeing Wes Brown cough up the ball, or bang another cross into the first defender. The few times we've seen Simpson play, he's had about 3 clear cut chances to score, and he's already assisted once, maybe more if I'm forgetting. Play the lad FFS. Fourth Gripe. When things aren't going right, re-shuffle the pack. Mourinho would do this all the time and most of the time, to positive effect. Don't let the shit drag on to half time, then after half time send out the same players again. WTF. Where we stand at the moment. Right now, we have a collection of really talented players, and we're misusing almost all of them sans Scholes. Hargreaves in a 2 man midfield partnership? Nuh uh. Giggs playing anything other than a sub to liven up the game late on role? Nuh uh. Anderson not being played further up the field?(Injuries permitting) Nuh uh. A mediocre center back with a knack for ************ crosses, poor passing and rash tackles playing at right back? Nuh uh. Ronaldo playing as a traditional winger? Nuh uh. Ruining Rooney's career by playing him as #9? ******** no. In this modern game where it's more about not losing than winning in style, we have to come up with a system with more backbone than the one we currently have. Anytime you give up goals to a team like Derby, you know something is fundamentally wrong in the way you're going about things. If we are going to sign up a bunch of Latin players, don't put them in a crappy British 4-4-2... You want to use each player fully, and with the lack of a true, physical #9, I'm not sure how we can do that. Not having an out and out striker who can occupy the opposition defense really has a domino effect on the rest of the team. You saw what we did to a Roma team full of 'forwards' on a certain night in Manchester last season. Hopefully the management already knows this and have a plan to rectify it. Until then, if better can't be done, let the worst continue.
I agree with you very much on the topic of the legend that is Sir Alex. He is a fearless leader and is extremely loyal. He has done more for the club than anyone (except perhaps busby). I would never have the guts to sack him, and I think this is his club until he lets go. But that being said, he is tactically inferior to many of the managers in the premier league and in Europe due to the fact that he hasn't adapted to the style of play as much as I think he should have. There is no doubt in my mind that he could if he really wanted to, but often stubbornness comes hand in hand with loyalty. I often wonder how we would be fairing with a hardcore tactician. Joachim Löw for example. There is no question that Nani and Anderson will be great players when they develop, but that money could have and should have (in my opinion) been spent on a true number 9, as we have discovered that Rooney for some reason or another will never play that position, and neither will Tevez. I think that our team is set up for having those attacking lineups like we put out against Rome last year. We a team that can possess and attack, thats what our personnel would suggest. We should play like it more often, I think if we used more of a European formation against premier league teams, we could simply out finesse and outclass them with a proper formation in place. Saha out soon, he has no worth. People have been saying it for years, and it needs to be realized by the upper management. It's obvious he isn't worth having on the team, and the money could be spent so much better elsewhere. It is a shame we never really had a chance to sign Torres. I dream about him in a united kit right now. It would be orgasmic. Obviously I want United to play beautiful attacking football, but the reality is as nice as that is, I want to win. I think that is how Fergie likes to think about things. If that means a 4-5-1 like we saw today, fine. I would be happy with that if it worked out in games like hmmmmm.... todays. But it doesn't and that needs to be realized and adjusted at the half. The commentators were talking about how United came back in Barcelona in 99' and against Sheffield Wednesday, and how time and time again we have come back to win in situations like what we were faced with today. I feel like the game is adapting, and Ferguson has to adapt with it. He has the players, now the tactics must come.
So if Simpson cost us the title, you wouldnt be mad? When did a team like Derby score on us? Bolton scored on us, because we had faith in youth.
First of all, why would I make a post like this last season, when most of the time we used our personnel to great effect? Also, did you read any of my post? Or did you skim it and rush in a haste to 'expose me' as a doomlord? I said in the disclaimer that this is how I deal with negative results. It's a way to get things out without cursing incoherently. This isn't a cry to sack him(as I said in my post if you bothered to read it) Now go on being righteously indignant, it's funny. I fail to see how playing a talented young player in his natural position will cost us the title. He played well away in a Champions League match against a team like Roma yet he isn't good enough? Elaborate more. Derby scored on us at Old Trafford. Bolton scored on us because a youngster made one mistake. Was Pique responsible for us not being able to mount an attack worth a damn? Was he constantly dispossessed, banged crosses against players etc?
Im saying the whole argument here is, playing the youngsters and sticking with them through their trials and tribulations is a risk. We all know Simpson is talented, but he's still developing. Would you be willing to stick with him, even if he made mistakes that ended up costing us the title? People like to complain that Arsenal could afford to blood their younger players. Are you ready to join the same boat? Do you think that we could still win the league while blooding youngsters? espcially a young defender? I never said Smpson wasnt good enough, but Im not ready to start crowning him Gary Neville's successor. He's a good youngster who did well int he Colaship. He's still young. I honestly dont think Fergie is in a position to let Simpson play and learn from his mistakes just yet. You mean the game we won 4-1? The players had already taken their foot off the pedal. You said it as if we consistantly concede bad goals to bad teams. As far as Pique, he was pretty much unstable for most of the game. Anyhow, my point... you said this... You would be refering mostly to our defense here right? Can you honestly say there is something wrong with our first choice backline minus Neville? Minus the obvious drop Wes Brown, what would you do different?
We're not in the same situation as Arsenal because we usually have mixed teams. The spine of our team aren't youngsters like Arsenal was. I'm talking about one or two positions here, not most of the team. I don't recall bringing Gary Neville into the team as a young player destroying our title hopes. Why not? He gives us options on the overlap, it's not like he'll be just standing there getting attacked all game, he's the oppressor, and he'll be helping us oppress teams. I'm not calling him Neville's successor either, but surely he's a better option than Brown. He attacks 10 times better than Brown, and I rather have an improved attack down that flank than a slightly improved defense(sic) and a faltering attack. Besides, he's not some 17 year old child, he's 20 years old, old enough to be playing more than he has. Nicolas Anelka tends to destabilize defenders. But experienced, world class defenders make mistakes, so why can't we expect our young players to do the same. You must make mistakes in order to improve, it's inevitable. I don't get this fear of playing young players when we have experienced players ********ing up. Do different? It has less to do with the personnel, and more to do with their mentality and the way they go about things. The thing I'm unhappy with is our inability to clear our lines sometimes. The goal we conceded at Spurs, the two we conceded at Arsenal etc reek of sluggishness. When the opposition gets into your area, you need to go into gung ho "gtfo my box" mode, not casually jog around ball watching until the ball hits the net then look disappointed, mode. I want more urgency. For the most part Rio and Vidic are rocks at the back though, no doubt about it. I just don't like some of the goals we concede.
Fiercely loyal to the players he likes, despite any negative effect those players might have on team performances. Slow to make changes.(a more recent trend) Makes the same mistakes over and over and over again. ------------------------------------------------------------ I agree in some ways after today, I mean it took my breath away when Carrick and Hargreaves appeared on the touchline with 20 Minutes to play???????????? can anyone explain why Fergie didnt play these two from the beginning?? I mean they could have played the first half yes ??? You know Anderson Carrick, Hargreaves the three players that have got us this far in the season at the top, I think Scholes should be dropped for the Arsenal match and be told to fight for his position, I mean why does he deserve a first team place ahead of Carrick and Hargreaves, and we all agree that Anderson deserves to play, he has been the revalation of the season so far Lastly why did Fergie select Oh Shea ahead of Danny Simpson, O'Shea was dreadfull, Is Pique injured he should play ahead of O'Shea, I just dont understand What Fergie is thinking at times. Giggs and Nanni didnt compete in Midfield at all, and City showed us how to Pass at times After the Spurs match we should have sealed at least a Draw because as Queiroz said "all the players were tired from the Internationals" so we should have had Danny Simpson at left back and Carrick, Scholes, Hargreaves and Anderson in Midfield with Ronaldo and Tevez up front now dont you think that this line up would have faired better ???????????. Come to think of it with the exception of Rooney in for Scholes, this should be the team for the Arsenal match.
Just 1 question. If something is fundamentally wrong about our team due to the fact that we occasionally concede goals from poor teams, how horrendously awful is everyone else in Premiership, since we have the best goals against ratio by a significant margin? Or in Europe, for that matter?
I dont normally criticize Sir Alex but I think he has left team team in a spot of bother this year. I know DS has mentioned this before but I happen to agree with him in the there is no Plan B. I watched the 06/07 season review on dvd the other day. Jeez that Saha guy who used to play for us was great. Also Larson when he was here. Oh and Ole scored a bunch of goals. We had a number of ways we could change the attack last year. The simple fact of the matter is that we are very thin up top this season and Fergie did not do anything to rectify that especially during the January Transfer window. Some people say that is down to lack of transfer funds (which I don't believe). But I think it is down to Fergie's hope that we could persevere with what we have already. Hoping that Rooney does not (a) accumulate yellow cards or (b) does not break another bone in his brittle feet is part of his strategy. Another part of that is hoping that Tevez (a) continues his good form or (b) does not get worn down. Everyone on here knows that Saha is a lost cause. Why doesnt Fergie believe that? Even when Saha has played, he has not look the same player as last year.
So you admit this is a knee-jerk thread to yesterday's tough loss? Yes, I had the pleasure of reading it. I particularly enjoyed the part where you said 'Fergie is tactically naive 95% of the time'. So this is more-so therapy than an invitation for discussion? Have a seat on the couch...we normally bill out at $75/hr. Thanks. I think the lack of a plan B is really down to our thin squad. We just don't really have any good options available when things aren't working. I choose to believe that we don't have the funds available to replenish our squad. Fergie has mentioned how thin we are up front, so it's not like he doesn't know there is a problem. I really don't know what he'd be trying to prove by not buying any players.
Then if that the case, Fergie should not have bought Nani AND Anderson (and maybe even Hargreaves) in the summer.
Ferguson is respected but not perfect. Just because he won us a boat of trophies also doesn't mean he's immune from criticism. While Invincible's post seems like a knee-jerk reaction it does make good points, ones some of us including machoward, and Dark Savante have been saying for three to four months already. There is no Plan B. Plan A is good enough to beat 90% of the teams in the Premiership and the smaller European teams. When we're given a challenge, and plan A doesn't work, we fall short. It happened against West Ham, and it happened again versus City yesterday. Come Champions League Night against a Barca or Milan, we will most likely look even more lost and these matches where we fall short are for better or worse precursors to our matches against the giants of Europe. Ferguson and co. are stubborn and will not accept responsibility for their tactical flaws and screw ups. We've seen it for years now and yesterday was another example of it. And I don't mean not buying a striker in January, because that most likely happens to be a financial decision (although you can make the argument that we should have shopped for one more in the summer) but things like underestimating opponents, not making the right tactical decisions and substitutions during matches, and oftentimes too late. We can opt to play Simpson and Pique but truth be told they won't make much of a difference because we need performers for the big stage. The former will probably slot in well against Derby and Newcastle and perform well, but against Arsenal, Chelsea, our other boogey teams in the Premiership and the giants in Europe, there's not much they can give us that Brown and O'Shea for example can't. We can start utilizing them more often and slowly blood them to get them to said level but that will take time and realistically will probably cost us points. Now if Ferguson is willing to risk that, like Wenger did in the past two seasons, then we can look forward to a more complete and balanced team.
I Repeat what I said yesterday I mean it took my breath away when Carrick and Hargreaves appeared on the touchline with 20 Minutes to play???????????? can anyone explain why Fergie didnt play these two from the beginning?? I mean they could have played the first half yes ??? You know Anderson Carrick, Hargreaves the three players that have got us this far in the season at the top, Did Fergie just forget the beginning half of this season, there is an old saying never change a winning team, I think this applies.
While I agree on some points I do have others I do disagree on. You talk about lack of faith in our youngsters. The team against City featured Nani, Anderson, Ronaldo and Tevez from midfield and up, these guys aren't exactly old. Then there is the complaining about tactics. We have all been wanting Anderson and Scholes in a 442 and from midfield and up the team put on against City looked positive. This team should be able to get a goal or two. The defence put out is really solid defensivly and should be able to keep a clean sheet as they have done several times this season. So while we can point fingers after the game, I don't think anyone thought this formation was simply horrible and that an 8 year old could do better than that at the start of the game. When you look at the bench SAF had available not a single one of them had scored a goal so far this season. Nani and Giggs has the most assist for us and Ron and Tevez has the most goals. Scholes and Anderson is the smoothest in midfield, was it so horrible giving them until 60 minutes? I don't agree with all the complaining after this game. We had too many players that didn't show up. When you look at the grand scheme of things I have to agree that things aren't looking very good this season. We have missed Saha, Scholes and Neville for almost the whole season and it hasn't helped. Solskjaer was meant to play this season but got his set back at a bad timing for us and we didn't have the chance to get in more people. SAF would have had Saha, Solskjaer, Tevez and Rooney to rotate and even if Saha or Solskjaer would be injured at times you wouldn't think we would have been as unlucky as Saha out the whole season and Solskjaer retired? This has left us in a mess in this position. Then there is the posibilty to complain that we didn't buy in the january window. This window has never been a good window to buy in. As far as I saw it Anelka was the only option that looked really good in january as he probably wouldn't need to much time to adabt. But Anelka went for £ 15 million, we aren't Chelsea and we as fans shouldn't expect us throwing around money like that. And how do we know who SAF and co is looking on for the future in that nr. 9 role? Long term there might be logic options. Neville out has definently hurt us on the offensive side this season. Then there is complaining that Brown is playing instead of Simpson. Brown has Ronaldo in front of him and should definently be able to do more on the offensive part. But having Ronaldo in front of you also makes the opposition able to double up on the fullback when the oppo has the ball. The games Simpson has played he has showed that he isn't comfortable positionally and I would worry every time the oppo doubled up on him. The midfield has also been shambles this season and if the defence hadn't been solid we wouldn't have a single solid spot in our team. Our defence has been good at defending this season. How do we know all our 1-0 had been 1-0 if this unit didn't play and who knows how many point we could have been behind Arsenal at this point then? Scholes out has made us rotating two new guys with Carrick. Hargreaves was injured alot during the start and Anderson didn't have a preseason do to the Copa America. We can't expect that this wouldn't have any effect at all on our team. It has hurt us alot that all these important guys has gotten injured, but SAF couldn't have predicted how that happened. Last year we were lucky with the injuries and we won the league. Had Saha, Neville, Solskjear and Scholes been out last year the amount they have this season we wouldn't have been close to winning the league. Did we complain? Yes, we said we needed more cover and didn't we get it? We got Nani, Anderson, Hargreaves and Tevez in and noone should expect us to get much more than that in one transfer window. We are definently a team in a transition period and we shouldn't shout and scream at SAF being incompetent because he isn't winning the league every year at the same time. I would hope the PL was a tougher competition than that. By the end of this evening we might end up 5 point behind Arsenal but there is alot of games left. I don't think things will be smooth for us this season as we missed too many players all season for the team to really gel. But we have been winning games reguraly this season even if things hasn't been smooth. The league aren't over yet, but I can't say I'm as positive as I was at the start of the season. But in the same time I think it's unfair blaming SAF for all thats wrong this season. I have to agree that he isn't very tactical flexible though. We could have gone for a 433 against City and then they would have strugled big time scoring against us. It would have been a dull afair though and with the aniversity I can't blame the management for trying to make it an entertaining game.
I think we had problems last year, and we took steps to correct those problems, however, certain other problems presented themselves because we didn't fix the problem of us not having a #9. Last year we had options if a striker went down or if we needed a different approach in the attack, this year we do not. There has been something wrong this season other then us not having a striker, but i can't put my finger on it.
"AHA! So you admit it's a knee jerk reaction!" Dude, come off it, seriously. This isn't a knee jerk anything. "Sack him!" is a knee jerk reaction. What you're posting right now is a knee jerk reaction to what I wrote. What I wrote is how I feel, win or lose and yesterday's result just cemented my beliefs. Yet you haven't given a rebuttal or proven otherwise. I dared to challenge your hero and now you're all emotional. It is therapy, AND discussion. Now either start discussing the topic, or leave. Dude...THANK YOU. That's exactly my point. Some people just can't handle the truth though, especially the 'top red' brigade. How are we supposed to move to the next level as a club if the management don't accept that they ******** up once in a while and open up to new ideas? We might be able to recover and win the title, but we're gonna get absolutely schooled in the Champions League again if we meet up Milan, Inter, Real Madrid etc.
I mentioned this in the other thread but I'll mention it again. Fergie, in all of his infinite wisdom and genius, still tends to pick teams on the basis of reputation and not form. I mean, Giggs has been struggling all season and he would be better suited to an impact role from the bench but Fergie still insists on starting him. If he is playing poorly, Fergie seems very reluctant to sub him and this has been hurting us in the long term. Giggs is a definite all timer but his frustrating performances should be avoided but Fergie is persistent with starting him. I guess this is just another example of what SirManc was getting at when he called Fergie stubborn. Anyways I'm more optimistic than Invincible but that's just my two cents.
I think that one of the reasons why we are all so frustrated with the team's performance this season is because of the unrealistic expectations we had after the suprisingly superb season the team had last year. Making it to the semi-finals of the Champions League, the Final of the FA Cup, and taking the title from a strong Chelsea team made it far easier for us to look past the deficiencies in the team and forget the fact that the team is a work in progress. This season I think we are seeing a more realistic picture of where we truly are. What I see is extremely promising and exciting. While we have some issues to address, we have the core of a team that will, in another year or two, be able to stand on equal footing with any team in the world, and hopefully win a treble or two. Nevertheless, here are the areas we need to address. GK: While Van der Sar has served us well over the years, he is 37 and should not be looked to as our first choice keeper after the end of this season. Unfortunately, Ben Foster's development has been hampered by injury and, while I love Kuszczak, I don't seem him as a first choice keeper. We need to address this by ensuring that Foster will be healthy and in form for next year or going out and signing a proper keeper. Can any of us realistically say that in the keeper position we are on par with Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, AC Milan, Juventus, Real Madrid, Barcelona, etc. If Foster can't show by the end of the season that he is the future, we need to go out and buy a keeper. RB: Gary Neville will be 33 in a week and has suffered so many injuries that he should not be seen as a long term solution, if and when he ever regains form. Simpson is promising and should be given a chance to show whether or not he will succeed. CB: Rio and Vidic are superb, despite Rio's tendency to leave his brain in the dressing room on occassion. With Pique and Evans, who is impressing at Sunderland, we have sufficient cover for the time being. LB: Evra is more than adequate, but I think that we should try to bring in a young left-back that will make him work to retain his place and give us more cover than O'Shea. Midfield: We really do have a wealth of options here, although as has been addressed ad nauseam by other posters, our midfield struggles are a matter of formation and tactics. Personally, I would like to see a 4-3-3, with a midfield consisting of Carrick, Scholes, and Anderson. Hargreaves and Fletcher will be there for the matches when we need some defensive pressure and Park and Nani can come of the bench as substitutes, at least until Nani furthers his development. For the remainder of the season (and next season if he still merits inclusion), Giggs should get the role of super sub in either the three man midfield or the three main attacking trio discussed below. Attacking Players: In a 4-3-3, which I prefer, we need to buy a true #9 before we will have the success we want (i.e., dominate the league and be a legitimate favorite to win the Champions League). I would even go so far as to say that we should buy two of them. Saha is dead to me, and should be shown the door. Bring in a world class striker and a quality back up and we will be set. Partner that strker with Rooney (who is no #9 regardless of what Fergie says) and Ronaldo, and the attack will liven up real quick. Now, where does that leave Tevez you may ask. Well, I think we need to stop kidding ourselves and acknowledge that Rooney and Tevez play the same position. I think Tevez is great, but we already have Rooney, who I think is better. Put Tevez on the bench and and have a rotation policy between him, Rooney, and Ronaldo. That will prevent fatigue and allow us to realistically push on three fronts. Therefore, to summarize we need to remember that the team is still a work in progress. One that acheived more than expected last season, but still one that is a work in progress. Address four issues: 1. Develop Foster or buy a keeper. 2. Bloody Simpson. 3. Use a midfield formation that fits our personnel. 4. Purchase a true #9. and Manchester United will really go to the next level.
It is a knee jerk reaction, but that's ok...we're used to it from you. Ted gave a reasonable post, and I answered with a reasonable reply. You should try it sometime. Why don't you back up your claim that 'Fergie is tactically naive 95% of the time'? I've got no problem with constructive criticism; I would even agree that Fergie has been found lacking tactically at times. But 95% of the time?? I understand you're ranting here, but come on... What other manager would be doing better than Fergie at United right now? What other manager will take us to the next level?