The Middle Class Blames every one but themselves

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by DoctorD, Aug 23, 2012.

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  1. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Okay, that's the second sentence.
     
  2. ratdog

    ratdog Member+

    Mar 22, 2004
    In the doghouse
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And TPfish wonders why, unlike ASF or ceezmad, nobody takes him seriously...
     
  3. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Or stanger, he gives it a go.

    On the other hand there's Fish, Quayle, Ties. It's not a great record for GOPish posters, 50% trying and 50% not. I'd like to see that figure higher. Any non Talking Points from the right wish to show up? We'd like to have you. Well at do honestly think most of us would, not all, but most. Please come by.
     
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  4. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Have you seen what public colleges are costing these days?

    My stepson is attending the University of Colorado and even for in-state students, the tuition is ridiculous. My own alma mater, the University of Texas at Austin, has tuition and fees that are several times what they were when I was there 20 years ago. (My tuition and fees for 13 hours my first semester in Fall 1989 were under $500. The same course load this fall would be at least seven or eight times as much.)

    Not coincidentally, this has come as state support has dropped significantly. The State of Colorado provides less than 5% of CU-Boulder's budget. The State of Texas provides more funding for its state universities, including UT-Austin, but that's declined precipitously over the past 25 years.

    Forget taking on a ton of debt to attend private universities -- you can do that pretty easily at public universities these days!
     
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  5. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Has he borrowed money from his parents? That's what Mittens would do....


    Talking seriously, investing on your education used to make sense. For a few thousand dollars investment you would boost your income perennially. Now a days you take several thousand dollars in loans and there is no guarantee that you will reap any benefits.

    There was a note in Rachel Maddow's show a few weeks ago about how for profit colleges were targeting GIs with advertising to enroll them and to get loans not only from the government but from private bankers.

    Surprisingly the success rates were very very low (completion, salary after) and the prices very very high. More surprisingly, colleges got paid anyways. Even more surprisingly, one of the owners was Mittens friend and he was the speaker at the commencement.

    Oh, here it is:

     
  6. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    GI Bill for me, but not everyone can be bothered to do shit like that i suppose. That and Illinois has tuition assistance for veterans.
     
  7. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Can't be bothered or don't think that a prerequisite to an affordable education should be killing brown people.
     
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  8. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Someone has to do it.
     
  9. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    I thought you were talking about yourself personally. I asked where you live because not many housing areas have had that drastic of a decline. Unfortunately for Las Vegas, where I live, we have. Strange you would make those claims when you know you are exaggerating.

    Why I posted what I did earlier was not to spit out some Fox News talking point. It's that someone I know came to me for a loan a couple months ago and let me look at their spending habits. This is not a person working in a fictional plant this is an actual human being whose family income is 60K pre tax. They spend over 24K a year on the things I mentioned. That is 40% of pre tax income. If they gave that money to a second family of four the second family would be above the poverty line. These are not poor people who I am trying to shame or OMG they have a refrigerator. These are not fake numbers to prove a point these are the numbers of a typical Las Vegas middle classer. This is not the fault of some guy elected when my friend was six years old. It was the first time someone asked him if a five year old should have a cell phone with unlimited text and web or a brand new 36 inch TV to watch HBO and Showtime in the privacy of their bedroom. Apparently for him and others I have spoken to these are defined as needs.

    I imagine Vegas is different from where you live so these things may not apply to you. But I find people squander a lot more money than they admit and I am not talking about the gamblers.
     
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  10. DoyleG

    DoyleG Member+

    CanPL
    Canada
    Jan 11, 2002
    YEG-->YYJ-->YWG-->YYB
    Club:
    FC Edmonton
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Same elsewhere. Apart from offices, there's less of a need for land lines in today's world.
     
  11. MattR

    MattR Member+

    Jun 14, 2003
    Reston
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Another Republican enjoying free-ride college from my taxes.
     
  12. Funkfoot

    Funkfoot Member+

    May 18, 2002
    New Orleans, LA
    You have to admire the way he dropped the name of the dish machine manufacturer, just to show he wasn't making the whole thing up.
     
  13. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Green Party, but yes thanks people that pay high taxes for my education.
     
  14. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    You know, that's a story that becomes worse upon each reading. Ryan makes me appreciate Mitt Romney, and yes I meant those words.

    I'm not sure that I prefer Ryan to Palin.
     
  15. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    No problem, glad to be of help. Federal taxes for you and Illinois too.

    You have a cute wife or daughter who can repay me the favor? It won't take long.
     
  16. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is the word at PoleKats. ;)
     
  17. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    I'm at work, I'd better not google PoleKats. But I can probably guess.
     
  18. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Still, you are saying a lot a bullcrap based on some circumstantial evidence and basically still telling me that it is my fault. Not that I need your understanding, but even if I was that irresponsible acquaintance of yours, putting 10 or 20 extra grand each year into lets say a 401k or my mortgage principal from 2005 to 2008 do you know how much would I have to show for it? About the same amount that I have now, an underwater mortgage and a 401k that it is just yet rebounding to 2008 levels with insane fluctuations.

    And never mind that I have done a lot better than several people I know, I still have a job with benefits and still have 30 years to try to make up for my retirement. I know people who lost their life savings in failed companies, people that went for a 40 hr week with benefits to working part time in a grocery store, people that lost homes and believe, NONE of them was paying cable or cellphones for their toddlers.

    So again, how it this my fault?
     
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  19. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know this was ficticious, but...
    What, these days, is a general middle class member? Banker? Teacher? Lawyer? Secretary? Or it is just those in blue collar jobs?

    Well, the recommended is 2 to 6 months of savings. And this has been the recommendation for many, many, many years. I do not have that, so I am with a problem, as a middle class member. But I know it is my fault.
    What percentage of these outsourcing of jobs requires a college level degree?

    I am not a wiz with real estate, but I am smart enough to know of the rise and fall of real estate prices. I knew that I could have purchased a house in 2004 and seen a huge rise by 2006/2007, but also know that the market would not continue to rise forever in the way it had. So I chose not to buy, and I am much the better for it. IOW, I was not greedy.
    Yeah, but at this point you have a job. Not for the pay you wanted, but if you are in a high risk location industry, then you should probably be pleased to be employeed. FFS, if you have overbudgeted, then you might have to go down to McDonalds or Walmart and get a second, crappy job.
    What difference does it make where do I live?[/quote]
    Go ahead and panic. Or are you near retrement? Many of my fellow middle class members are panicing now not thinking about the future 10 or 20 years from now.

    I keep thinking about the above scenario and relating it to GM. Back around 2009/2010 I think, there was some kid that got interviewed in Ohio who had been laid off. He was stressing because he dropped out of high school to work at a $25/hr job. Good for him for the 2 years he worked there. But now he doesn't have shit to show for it. And he is considered middle class. By wage only. And only for those 2 years he worked.

    MiTH talks about not buying into the American Dream. In general, that is home ownership, a good job, and giving your kids a good education (IOW, living in a nice neighborhood). According to Matt, wanting this is a falacy. That it not a falacy. If I were in a situation where I owned a home and had kids, I would do what I could to stay in that location. Moving multiple times does do harm to children, both socially and educationally. Of course, we don't have kids. But we want to live in a good, safe area. That likely means that we will live in a neighborhood that has a good school. Thus, as DINKs, we are competing with those who have additional expenses and must dedicate a bigger percentage of their earning towards housing to have their children attend the best possible schooling.

    It is all so very simple, don't you see?
     
  20. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    So attack the term, not the problem is your answer?


    If you depleted your savings due to unforeseen events, like job loss/paycut, sickness, divorce... Is that still your fault?


    Did I say that my job requires a college degree? Have you read how many college grads are settling for low and mid paying service jobs just to get a paycheck?


    Well, I saw the highlighted part... Did not see the Great Recession coming to be honest with you. I didn't want to make tons of money, wanted to get my own place and feared if prices rised for a couple more years I wouldn't have been able to afford a house. Mind that I got a very low fixed rate mortgage and that has kept our payments within sane figures.

    Yes, because at 9% unemployment there are plenty of those jobs around. I'm glad I still have a job since at the time they were cutting pay and benefits they were also letting people go every month. I adjusted my budget slashing unnecessary expenses and gladly my wife's paycheck has been stable. Never mind that we are now 3 and soon will be 4.


    Well, I'm not panicking but the future for sure is not clear. I'm way behind in my savings projections, meaning that I will have to probably work longer and live more modestly, and that is assuming that our generation still going to get social security or medicare benefits. If those are slashed, well probably we will be the first generation in 100 years to work until we die.



    I'm a parent and all those factors were considered when we bought a place. At this point it will be easy to move since our oldest one is in PreK, but then again you have to land in a place where you can have pretty much the same standards. And if we do not move, then we have to pray that they don't slash school budgets again.



    Yeah, I figured that out 10 years ago...
     
  21. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
  22. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Hmmm, I think both of you guys are correct and you should quit arguing.

    There are a lot of people who have bad spending habits. Always have been, but more now than in the past due to the ease of getting credit. And the American middle class is being eroded and outsourced, due both to the globalization of the marketplace (which can't be avoided) and due to ongoing Reaganomics (which can be avoided, but that is the choice that the U.S. public has made in the voting booth).
     
  23. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Seriously. I scrubbed pots in restaurants but I couldn't tell you the dish washing manufacturer. He must've researched that one for the anecdote.
     
  24. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Damn I hate when the rich pull that man-of-the-people routine. They must think the American public is very very stupid.

    Alright, never mind.
     
  25. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Yeah. They obviously have some polling that backs that up.
     

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