The Middle Class Blames every one but themselves

everything comes back to Seinfeld...

 

This gif teases out some of the information of the Pew study on middle income -

 

It's not Hail Grimes, but this would be a pretty good forum tagline.

 

Asshole.

 

Perfect!

 

Let me rephrase. Is there any piece of information that I could give you that would change your mind about the "whiny" facebook posts you read?

And when your answer is inexorably no, ask yourself if there is any piece of information Timon, or Wankler, or luftmensch, could give to change your mind?

And when the answer is - and you don't have to tell me, you can just determine this for yourself in private - no, consider why I didn't give you all the links, but simply told you to Google "why student loans are so high."

See, people don't learn by being told things. People don't learn in online arguments. They learn by being curious about the world and learning for themselves. You believe something that is simply untrue. Nothing I can say or do will ever change your mind. That's not my fault, because ASF couldn't change your mind either. An internet forum is not the place for changing minds easily.

So instead, I urge you to do some learning on your own.

 

I know why student loans are so high.
because schools are expensive and the cost of borrowing for someone with no job or low-paying job and no credit history is expensive.
but people know this before they make a decision to take out the loan.

 

If you are so sure, reading into things some more couldn't probably change your opinion. So why, instead of reading some more into it, are you back here posting? I'm in no hurry to finish this conversation with you, and the brilliance of the Internet is we can restart an old discussion months later.

In short: humor me.

 

Why are schools expensive? Did they spring forth fully formed that way?

 

Any numbers for government level support of public tertiary education?

 

@minerva:

Back in the 1970s what you propose made perfect sense: Manufacturing jobs abounded and lots of just-out of-hs kids opted to apply for well-paid jobs at the local company, which probably required on the job training or a six month vocational course at the local community college. So basically you had the best of both worlds, no crippling debt and a reasonable income that would sustain you for the next 30 or 40 years.

Fast forward to 2010: Manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas, well-paid jobs are difficult to find and according to most people that you listen to, well, if you want to better yourself you need an education. That mantra is repeated by your friends, your teachers, your parents, your online acquaintances, people in the media and of course, college recruiters. So if you are a 18 yo kid with the prospect of either flip burgers at your local fast food venue, go overseas (maybe returning in a bag) or going to college, with promises of great jobs and great pay, why shouldn't you? Do you think that this sounds as a dumb option?

Off course, marketing is different from results and while your dreaded millenials should have checked reality, where do you think that they can find that information? And if you think that people should not complain about student debt in social media, isn't that a practical form for new students to learn about the perils of student debt?

As a final point, do you realize that salaries have basically stayed flat during the last 40 years, while the fastest rising category in cost of living is....

 

I get all this. it may not be fair or just or whatever, but this is what the economy is today. it is not any one person's or entity's fault and it is not an excuse for people getting in over their heads with student loans.
people can still go to community college and get 4-year degrees from state schools for a lot less than private institutions.
I do believe that society should subsidize higher education and make it more affordable - at least for those with the smarts, but not the money to pay for it. but that's a separate issue from the one about personal responsibility/accountability.

 

1. Our smart legislatures at pretty much every level, have de-funded public education and while the cost hike might have not been as high for CCs as for private universities, it is not uncommon for public colleges to cost several thousands of dollars.

2. Are you basically blaming people who wants to better themselves for failing at trying to better themselves?

2b. Yes, you are.

 

No I'm not blaming anyone for wanting to better themselves. but they need to better themselves while being responsible and accountable as well.
would you support someone wanting to better themselves by robbing a bank?
well, isn't that what a person who defaults on a loan essentially does?

 

The news is saying a couple with 10 and 11 dollar/hr jobs is middle class? Maybe throw in a couple kids?

 

Sure. But they're not going to be able to help out much. Maybe a minimum wage job or two, if they're lucky enough to be paid even close to that.

 

Ya know what this table is really saying? Despite all the evidence that the richest are shifting money to capital gains and other revenue streams, income is still very, VERY taxable.

 

If you are trying to portray yourself as an A-hole, you have just accomplished that. Great!

 

I didn't like @Timon19 getting all the praise.

 

I am in the process of finding a college for my daughter that is a Junior in HS. What I have found is that you can get a good education at a good school and not go into debt, you just have to try.

Every school we have looked at so far offers discounts on tuition depending on three factors; your HS GPA, SAT/ACT scores and family's income. Say my daughter has a 4.0, scored 27+ ACT and mom and dad make -$50,000. Almost every school is just about free with money from scholarships or other programs. Switch that around to a poor student, low ACT and parents make $250,000+ and it is very expensive. I get that is not every expense, spending money, off campus housing, sometimes books, food is extra, but why can't Suzie get a job?

 

seems sensible enough for me.
especially in a service economy like ours, not everyone can join a profession.
society needs sanitation specialists and baristas too!

 

You guys feel great about yourselves, right?

I mean, I think that there are are some people that milks the system, but first of all, it is not who you think.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...-money-per-student-as-public-colleges/381679/

http://www.alternet.org/education/p...-debt-and-their-scam-financed-our-tax-dollars


Secondly, the people that you belittle is not scamming anyone or robbing banks. Are you guys even aware that student loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy?

http://business.time.com/2012/02/09/why-cant-you-discharge-student-loans-in-bankruptcy/


Thirdly, we need to get rid of that stupid misconception that some jobs are more worthy than others, based on how our society decided to compensate. Are you guys even aware that some of the lowest paid professions are probably the most important to our society? Not everyone can be a film star, a hedge fund manager or OJ's attorney. Meanwhile, caregivers, professors, cashiers, are being paid below poverty wages. If anything, before adjusting how we pay for college, we should guarantee that anyone that works 40 hrs per week should be able to make ends meet, regardless of his/her education level.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/home-health-care-workers-struggle-low-wages/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laurie-jones/students-in-debt-professo_b_8402560.html


Finally, yes, we need to restructure how we pay for education and there is a simple way to do it: Instead of subsidizing student loans and absorbing bank loses in the process, we could make public college education free.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...d-to-make-public-college-tuition-free/282803/

 

Asshole me again, Sam.

 

Most students in college have jobs.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-students-working-a-lot-in-college/

It's become so bad that not being able to get off work is becoming a valid reason for missing class and exams. I get that there are cheap options out there. I also think that the gap in quality between these "cheaper" and "more expensive" options are increasing due to reasons beyond both the student and the institution's control. In a labor market like this, employers can be very selective and coming from a less-prestigious school can kill an application.

In short, students are working more, and harder, and being more productive in school, while costs are rising, and still @minerva won't open a damn book to read up on it.

 

I blame Big Banks. Even if I'm wrong in this instance they're almost always the parasite on America's ass that drives up the cost of everything.

And U of Maine trying to poach kids from NJ & other NE states. A college price war going war. Savings, savings, savings!

http://www.nj.com/education/2015/12...tudents.html#incart_2box_nj-homepage-featured