The "Messi: the best player in the world. Is it even up for discussion?" thread

Discussion in 'Barcelona' started by jfcule, Mar 22, 2012.

  1. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Round 5 Mbappe vs. England

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    Recorded one big chance and one big miss when France won England with 2 goals to 1.

    From the best performance in round 4 to one of the worst in round 5. I think it fits between Cruyff and Ronaldo, neither being part of the 2 goals, but Cruyff didn't miss any big chances, and Ronaldo missed one more.

    World Cup Performance Index, considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team.

    1.
    Maradona 86 vs England
    Rossi 82 vs Brazil
    3.
    Forlan 10 vs Ghana
    4.
    Charlton 66 vs Portugal
    Messi 22 vs Netherlands
    6.
    Zidane 06 vs Brazil
    7.
    Suker 98 vs Germany
    8.
    Messi 14 vs Belgium
    Robben 14 vs Costa Rica
    Ronaldo 98 vs Denmark
    11.
    Eusebio 66 vs England
    Jairzinho 70 vs Uruguay
    13.
    G.Müller 70 vs Italy
    Schillaci 90 vs Ireland
    15.
    Modric 18 vs Belgium
    16.
    Pele 70 vs Uruguay
    Romario 94 vs Netherlands
    18.
    Kempes 78 vs Brazil
    19.
    Cruyff 74 vs East Germany
    20.
    Mbappe 22 vs England
    21.
    Ronaldo 02 vs England
     
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  2. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Round 6 Mbappe vs. Morocco

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    Part of both goals by rebounding blocked shots, the second one having quality in it. Other than that also had 5 big misses.

    Important part of the win, but considering he had 5 big misses, it's not that good of a performance. I'm putting it low as Robben and Zidane, as it's not as good as Messi WC14 who created 3 big chances not missing any.

    World Cup Performance Index
    , considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team.

    1.
    Maradona 86 vs Belgium
    2.
    Messi 22 vs Croatia
    3.
    Ronaldo 02 vs Turkey
    4.
    Rossi 82 vs Poland
    Schillaci 90 vs Argentina
    6.
    Cruyff 74 vs Brazil
    Kempes 78 vs Peru
    8.
    Suker 98 vs France
    9.
    Jairzinho 70 vs Italy
    Pele 70 vs Italy
    11.
    G.Müller 70 vs Uruguay
    Romario 94 vs Sweden
    13.
    Forlan 10 vs Netherlands
    Messi 14 vs Netherlands
    Ronaldo 98 vs Netherlands
    16.
    Mbappe 22 vs Morocco
    Robben 14 vs Argentina
    Zidane 06 vs Portugal
    19.
    Eusebio 66 vs Soviet Union
    20.
    Modric 18 vs England
    21.
    Charlton 66 vs West Germany
     
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  3. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    As I watched the game again, found two additional big chances that Messi created.

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    Round 7 Mbappe vs. Argentina


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    It was probably the greatest World Cup final, that also had two of the best ever individual final performances.

    Like Messi he was part of all 3 goals that France scored, and also scored the most important penalty in SO. Although Mbappe had two penalties, he was actually part of both build-ups to them, and overall had more quality in the goals.

    Other than that it was quiet performance, and considering Messi had much more involvement, and quality beyond goals, 4 big chances created to one miss, defended more etc., Messi's performance was just better overall. Considering the two additional chances I'm putting Messi now alone as the best performance in final round, and Mbappe with Kempes who scored 2/2 and created one additional chance.

    World Cup Performance Index, considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team.

    1.
    Messi 22 vs France
    2.
    Kempes 78 vs Netherlands
    Mbappe 22 vs Argentina
    4.
    Cruyff 74 vs West Germany
    Robben 14 vs Brazil
    Schillaci 90 vs England
    Suker 98 vs Netherlands
    8.
    Forlan 10 vs Germany
    Ronaldo 02 vs Germany
    10.
    Modric 18 vs France
    11.
    Rossi 82 vs West Germany
    12.
    Maradona 86 vs West Germany
    13.
    Messi 14 vs Germany
    14.
    Ronaldo 98 vs France
    15.
    Romario 94 vs Italy
    16.
    Zidane 06 vs Italy
     
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  4. Danko

    Danko Member+

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    ^ Great analysis! Mbappe did have a very good WC although I think his relative struggles in the QF and SF especially against England puts his performances just below the very best. Then again if France the Final... Mbappe probably would be BDO favorite and not Messi. :eek:
     
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  5. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Yeah it's insane from how small details so big things hang, and in the final there were many like that. Like the Kolo Muani and Lautaro chance's right at the end like 10 seconds apart. Luckily the luck was finally on Messi's side.
     
  6. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
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  7. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Mbappe WC22 is an all-time great performance. From attacking perspective he was very important part of the team, part of 13/16 goals and also scored in a SO.

    Comparison to Messi 22 is easy to make, and it's simply not as good. Importance, and scoring efficiency are pretty close, but Messi was a better playmaker, actually also defended, and was better in four rounds to two including the heads-up in the final. Mbappe is probably the first player I've watched, that didn't participate in defending at all. Had zero attempted tackles, blocks and interceptions the whole tournament. The same comparison applies to Jairzinho 70, and I'm going to give edge for Cruyff 74 and Robben 14 too.

    Putting it together with Forlan 10 now, as Forlan was more efficient scorer, but also didn't advance the game as much through dribbling.

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    World Cup performance index, considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team. Color highlighted as golden, silver, bronze ball, or not in Top 3.

    1.
    Maradona 86
    Messi 14

    3.
    Kempes 78
    Messi 22

    5.
    Jairzinho 70

    6.
    Cruyff 74
    Robben 14
    8.
    Forlan 10
    Mbappe 22
    10.
    Romario 94
    11.
    Eusebio 66
    Pele 70
    Rossi 82

    14.
    G.Müller 70
    Schillaci 90
    Suker 98
    17.
    Charlton 66
    Modric 18

    Ronaldo 02
    20.
    Ronaldo 98
    21.
    Zidane 06
     
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  8. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    [emoji599] Most Club Goals for Top-5 League Clubs:

    [emoji1033] Messi: 697 [emoji91]
    [emoji1201] CR7: 696

    Lionel Messi has SURPASSED Cristiano Ronaldo despite playing 85 fewer matches [emoji2962]
     
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  9. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
  10. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    [emoji2788] Van Dijk to Frenkie after [emoji1179] vs [emoji1033]: “Messi is not normal… there's a secret inside him. How did he pass from there? All the ways were closed, even the vision…”

    [emoji2788] Frenkie to Van Dijk: “We faced the best in history of football. We will never see someone like him in our life.”
     
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  11. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    [emoji2424]| Sergio Ramos: “There was suffering for several years playing against Leo Messi. I am now enjoying him. He is the best player football has ever produced.”
     
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  12. Gilmango

    Gilmango Member+

    Jul 20, 2006
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    https://dubz.co/c/zaz3d3
    Great curling strike from outside the box to win the game for PSG without Mbappe or Neymar (or Ramos, Kimpembe, Verratti):
     
  13. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    Messi back to his shape. Gatlier wants to build the team around Messi.
     
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  14. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Most goals from outside the penalty area in Top 5 leagues since 17-18

    39 Messi
    19 De Bruyne
    ...

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  15. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    He’s the massive favourite to win his 8th Balon D’or with the bookies
     
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  16. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #7966 Bada Bing, Feb 7, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2023
    As it should be. Messi has been the best in every competition, and in whole different level overall to anyone else.

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  17. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    He likely wins Fifa the best and if he has great UCL performances, 8th is very likely too.
     
  18. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    UCL performances is a big "if" considering they play Bayern. Of course, if PSG lose that would also rule out Mbappe & Neymar from winning the Ballon d'Or. In that case, the biggest threat probably comes from Haaland but nothing short of City/Haaland winning the EPL-CL double would garner serious discussion, imo.
     
  19. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    I was thinking that his World Cup performances would seal the deal
     
  20. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    My post didn't really suggest otherwise but would just urge not to count your chickens. The voting results over the past decade or so suggest people are tired of voting for Messi and looking for reasons to vote for someone else.

    A good example of this is the 2013-2015 period.
    - 2014: CR7 wins the CL scoring 17 CL goals and 30+ league goals. Wins the Ballon d'Or in a landslide (36% to 16%).
    -2015: Messi matches CR7's 2014 season by winning CL, scoring 10 CL goals and 40+ leagues goals. BUT he also leads Barca to La Liga title and the treble. Yet that vote was notably closer than 2014 (41% to 28%). :confused:

    To this day, still difficult to reconcile those 2014 and 2015 votes when looked at together even before turning one's head to int'l competition. Factor in WC 2014 events and it's even more telling.

    But if you recall the 2013 BD vote (the ultimate heist), the landslide 2014 vote and close 2015 vote becomes less surprising. :coffee:
     
  21. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Career 61th as 4-3 winner at 90+5:

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  22. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
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    Currently Messi is the only footballer/team player to win it.
     
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  23. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Barca (and/or the Catalan media) love to throw a lot of fake transfer speculations every year. So gonna take this with a grain of salt. But it has been reported that Messi's father is negotiating with Laporta for a return. The noise seems a bit more concrete.

    Messi's renewal at PSG doesn't seems to be stuck and with PSG trying to unload Neymar, I'd doubt Messi stays. I still find it unlikely.

    With rare exceptions I really don't like players returning. I hate the way Messi left, but I would be against a return for a few reasons. One of which is that a big reason for the turnaround this season is that we've become a fairly good pressing team again. Every player works off the ball to regain possession and Messi wouldn't be expected to do so.
     
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  24. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    I read that we have to shave off a further €200 million off the annual wage bill so I don’t see how we can bring back the highest paid player in history ??
     
  25. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    50th G+A in 22-23 for club and national team (29+21@38)

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