These are World Cup stats since 1958 for best players (attackers) on winning teams. Most Goals Scored 1. 2002 Ronaldo - 8 2. 2022 Messi - 7 3. 1958 Pele - 6 1978 Kempes - 6 1982 Rossi - 6 4. 1986 Maradona - 5 1994 Romario - 5 2014 Muller - 5 Most Goal Contributions 1. 1970 Pele - 10 1986 Maradona - 10 2022 Messi - 10 2. 2002 Ronaldo - 8 3. 1958 Pele - 7 1978 Kempes - 7 1982 Rossi - 7 Highest Goal Contribution Involvement % 1. 1986 Maradona - 71.4% 2. 2022 Messi - 66.7% 3. 1982 Rossi - 58.3% 4. 1994 Romario - 54.5% 5. 1970 Pele - 52.6% Most Knockout Round Goals Scored 1. 1958 Pele - 6 1978 Kempes - 6 1982 Rossi - 6 2. 2022 Messi - 5 3. 2002 Ronaldo - 5 Most Knockout Round Goal Contributions 1. 2022 Messi - 7 1978 Kempes - 7 2. 1958 Pele - 6 1982 Rossi - 6 3. 1970 Pele - 5 1974 Muller - 5 1986 Maradona - 5 Highest Knockout Round Goal Contribution Involvement % 1. 2022 Messi - 70.0% 2. 1978 Kempes - 63.6% 3. 1986 Maradona - 62.5% 4. 1982 Rossi - 60.0% 5. 1984 Romario - 60.0% Messi is at or near the top in almost every metric!
Just subtract 4 from whole campaign and 3 from KO round phase from Messi's numbers. I think most of the other players scored little to no PKs. I know R9 (02) had 0 PKs and so did Maradona (86), Rossi (82), Romario (94), Pele (58 and 70) ...
I wasn't sure about Kempes scoring a penalty; so I checked. Kempes did not score any of his goals from penalties, just like the other players on the list: R9 (2002), Pele, Maradona, Rossi, Romario, and Muller (R9 scored a penalty in 1998). So, if we remove penalties, the list remains the same except that Messi does not remain in any of the categories.
Indeed he was. I had seen his fantastic performances, just did not remember if he had scored a penalty or not in the 1978 World Cup.
Why would we not count penalties? They are goals on the scoreboard. I understand generally valuing non-penalty goals more and I do so myself but they are still goals scored.
There is a big difference between scoring penalties versus scoring non-penalty (open play) goals. If Pep’s Barca would score penalties every game, they would not be regarded as arguably the best club side ever. Similarly, would anyone consider Brazil 1970 to be the greatest team of all time if they scored only penalties? Listing all goals as you did is being statistically accurate; however, it does not allow deeper inference related to performance quality or dominance (I’m not saying that was your objective rather than mere statistical reporting). That's why the penalty question is being justifiably raised.
On the same note of deeper inference, “goal contributions” is just goals and assists, correct? Messi is not credited for the hockey assist on Di Maria’s goal in the final, nor for some reason assisting Alvarez first goal against Croatia where he knocked it on to him at the start of his run (presumably because the ball bounced around a bit before Alvarez finished). In any case, Messi was pretty involved in both of those goals as well, which would give him a hand in every Argentinian goal in the knockout rounds except one (the second against Australia), regardless of being penalty or not. I’d say that infers a lot of performance quality.
Yep, or like the first goal v Australia where Messi created the turnover, drew a foul, took the free-kick, ball came back to him, dribbled past some players, made a hockey assist and then scored the goal. But counts the same as a tap in. Stats can only inform you to a limited extent.
huh? I can understand that penalties inflate the stats of an individual player, but surely a penalty goal shouldn't reflect negatively on the team that scores it. If a team makes some nice passes and gets into a great scoring position, what's the difference if a defender bowls over a guy just before he is about to take a shot or if the defender stands back and lets him finish? Also, Pep's Barca got awarded a lot of penalties some seasons so that's not a great example. That shouldn't even be surprising because a team that usually has the ball and creates a lot of danger will tend to draw more penalties.
You write as if the rules are different for Messi. None of the players get credit for pre-assists; many of the players in the list above have made fantastic contributions to their team's goals without getting statistical credit. Clodoaldo had that magical run through Italy's midfield in the lead up to Carlos Alberto's goal in the 1970 final. He didn't get credited, did he?
There is a qualitative difference but a goal is a goal. Not counting Messi's penalties means discounting the fact that he scored goals for Argentina. I would be happy to admit that the average quality of his goals are lower but he still scored them and they contributed to his team winning the WC.
But it should be noted that most players in those rankings above are strikers whose main job is to score. Messi is a playmaker first and foremost. Pre assists are one way to give playmakers the credit they've earned. Of course, pure strikers like R9 should also get credit when they get pre assists, but that won't be as often.
Nah, that's only in your mind. I just asked how the list would look like without penalty goals. The fact that only Messi is the one with penalty goals in that list is just a coincidence. The penalties may play down his accomplishments, not me!
Sure! From that list, Pele, Maradona, and Messi are the playmakers; the rest are strikers. If pre-assists are included, their stats will look even better. But if you are including pre-assists, it should be done for all. Unlike Rossi and Muller, Romario and R9 did play from deep and had some pre-assists as well.
I’m just trying to apply the same logic you are—stats only tell part of the story. If we should consider that Messi scored a bunch of penalties, we can also consider he directly contributed to every goal Argentina scored in the knockout rounds save one. I don’t mean to compare that to the other greats in the post that started this, I just think that’s pretty significant.
Oh, so blindly exaggerating and extolling Lionel Messi would get your approval, but critiquing stats and assessing all players equally and objectively will not. Brilliant! Your parochial BS aside, it is mere coincidence that Messi is the only one with penalties on that list. If Romario scored penalties or Kempes did, for example, their crude stats would also be questioned.