The long overdue and frank discussion about the US Midfield 2018-2022

Please tell me you are flaming us with this. McKennie right now is much better than Bradley based on his athletic superiority alone:

 

He can be held responsible for his own play, and his inability to tackle, dribble, or combine well with others against tiny countries with MLS and worse level competition.

 

Yurch may not have the clearest judgment n this topic.

 

I'm more interested in what people think it might look like in 2022, and what players they hope we'll look at in various areas.

It reminds me of talking Redskins Draft with fellow Redskins fans who spend all of their time entirely fixated on us drafting Vita Vea, or Minka Fitzpatrick, or Derrius Guice, or Derwin James or Da'Ron Payne, and this or that corner, OL, or DB or RB in round 2, and that's it.

I hate that kinda thing, I much prefer thought process that run like this:

If the Redskins go RB, I would like:
1. Barkley (no Chance)
or
Tier 2:
2. Guice
3. Penny
4. Chubb
5. Michel

If the Redskins go DB, I would prefer:
1. Fitzpatrick
2. James
3. Ward

If the Redskins go for DL or DT help, then it should be Landry, or Davenport, or BJ Hill yada yada you get it.

For this kind of topic, I'd love to see what people feel the present depth chart might be AND (and this is the most interesting aspect for me anyway), the ideal depth chart if the best of our prospects stayed healthy and actually came through on their promise.

 

i think both sides of the MB debate have valid points and that speaks volumes about our midfield situation.

• MB is a shadow of who he was before he came back to MLS/got injured and his athleticism is dropping right before our eyes like a long-in-the-tooth NBA center
• Nevertheless, he is still in the mix for a midfield spot, if not a leading contender

To me, I'd build our CM around WM. To that end, I'd slot in Danny Williams as his partner for now and work like hell to find one of the up-and-comers to beat DW out. MB still in the mix but as a backup when the inevitable DW injury occurs and USSF should be actively working to get Adams, Delgado and Roldan to the majors (personally, I think it's too late for Trapp) to get them acclimated to a faster/better level of play.

 

Let's leave the Bradley debate to the MB thread. Let's get back to the OT.

The thread is valid because right now, I'm not sure we have any clue who is in our best midfield. We won't have a game that matters for a while. We won't have to put together a midfield that needs to play well until next summer, so how the fudge are we going to figure this out. The friendlies ain't going to tell us much, because I can't imagine they are going to blend together the Euros and the MLS/Liga MX players much for meaningless friendlies. The Euro players and non-vital MLSers will play the Euro friendlies and vice versa.

I think the only things we know about this team at all, is that right now Adams, McKennie and Pulisic should be a part going forward. Some would argue that Yedlin is a lock? Meh. Saief probably will become a lock, hopefully, but he needs a few more appearences like the last one. We have no clear 6, but do we absolutely need one? If you play with 5 along the back, you probably don't. Put three technically good midfielders between the back and the front, and you're good to go. Adams, McKennie, and Saief.

 

If you want a stay-at-home MF. why not MB, captain of our stay-at-home team?

 

Wish I had time to expand but ... 'meaningless friendlies' are all we've got at the moment, so the question is how best to make use of them.

I favor projecting young players 2-4 years from now, pulling them in for MNT training and experience (not meaningless), unless pulling them in hurts their current club situation/career path. It's difficult to get this exactly right, of course, but that's why we have threads like these - so someone can tell us 4 years from now that he was right (and we were wrong)..

 

No games are meaningless. Any assembly of the USMNT is for progress, either with current or future players that will carry our torch. I understand we are not in the WC. These games are about finding the proper fit on the field that will bring us there next time. I am sure we"ll be back. Every national team has missed a WC. This is our first of the modern era. I am sure it will be a learning experience for all involved. Our pipeline is flowing and the more games the better. 4 yrs is a long way off. Let's hope everybody stays healthy and more guys break out...and we find a coach. Patience, young Jedi.

 

I agree...no game is meaningless. But they only become meaningful if the coach plays upcoming players who will, hopefully, make their mark on the team. I do not think that any of the old guard should be called up in the near future. That includes Howard, Zusi, Bradley, and any others that I am forgetting...including Altidore. Altidore may be needed if we cannot find an adequate replacement, but he should not be called in any time soon. Let the youngsters win or lose the games, and coach, please let them all play adequate minutes to really get a feel for them.

 

Altidore is only 28. People act like he's 35. He'll still be in the pool. Every player will start with a clean slate under a new coach, and will have to earn opportunities going forward. People also may not recognize that while he has his faults, Jozy Altidore has one of the highest goals/game rates in US soccer history.

Well.....................a lot can happen in a year and a half within a player pool. Players are going to rise and fade.

If I have to project out a year I'd put the 4 youngsters (and I define that as players eligible for the 2020 Olympic cycle)................as McKennie, Adams, Parks, and Durkin. I'm making an assumption on Durkin's progression over the next year there. Then for the 4 veterans (and all I mean by that is too old for the 2020 Olympic cycle).............I'd select Bradley, Delgado, Roldan, and Trapp. For the 2019 Gold Cup/Copa America I'd jumble those groups with 2 youngsters/2 veterans selected for each. Then I'd pick a fringy group for the League of Nations starting with Kellyn Acosta (who's performance for club and country has been poor since the 2017 Gold Cup. He needs to prove himself again).

I pulled that out of my butt, so I'm sure I'm missing somebody obvious in my selections. Maybe Danny Williams, but I'm starting to think of him as a more offensive player as he plays that role often for Huddersfield. Lynden Gooch sorta fits that category too.

Anyway, I'm sure I missed some obvious guys there. The point is there are lots of opportunities. And we're not just throwing out veterans all willy-nilly. The idea is that every player starts with a clean slate under a new coach with a fresh pair of eyes. If Michael Bradley proves to a new coach that he still has value, then he'll continue to be involved. I mean, people seem to only be focused on WCQing for 2022. Any new coach isn't going to base his assessment of players JUST on that. It'll be a big factor, but not the only factor.

 

I’m all aboard the midfield 3 train of Parks, Mckennie and Adams.

To combat high presses, many teams are playing a good ball handler as a 6 as a conduit to retain possession. Mckennie over Adams for that role, which frees up Tyler to run around wrecking havoc and Parks to do a bit more heavy lifting on the creative side. Each of the 3, on the surface, complements their skill sets well together

 

On the contrary, while interesting (particularly Sargent and Weah), I will say that one of these becoming a legit force is by no means a foregone conclusion. In fact, I'd call Rubin a longshot at this point.

 

Jozy is very successful against poor teams and in friendlies. But his hex scoring record is pretty abysmal. He had 2 goals in 10 games this hex--one a PK created by BW, and another a tap-in created by CP.

 

Jozy and Clint hold the US record for World Cup qualifying goals with 18Gs.

 

I'm gonna make a list, no doubt loaded with errors, but built around a couple of main principles:

First: I'll make a list of the guys I think the fed/Sarachan have atop their depth charts in terms of central midfield and to a lesser extent, the wings (I'm missing some of the wingers that I imagine they might add to their oown listn).

Secondly: I'll make a list of my depth chart, for the most part, right now.

Third: I'll make a list of my prospect pool's on the farm, so to speak.

Fourth: I also want to use Bold Type and Italics for guys I think have a chance to be either superb or regular starters if everything breaks right, and high floor lower ceiling (or just plain "solid") guys that present that pleasent, known commodity and safety that coaches like, but to my eye, aren't high ceiling, superb prospects.

And again, I'm probably missing quite a few that I'll feel like a colossal idiot for forgetting, so I'm not married to this as absolutely accurate in as much as I'm married to it as a list of more or less, the best prospects coming up, and the best options, as far as I could tell, to play a major role in the central midfield or on the wing going forward.



Central Midfielders:

The current Pool (as I imagine they see it):
Central Midfielders:

The Catalyst:
C. Pulisic

Tier 1
1. McKennie
2. Bradley
3. Tyler Adams*
4. K. Acosta*
5. D. Nagbe

Tier 2
6. D. Williams
7. Delgado
8. Roldan
9. Rowe

Tier 3
10. Durkin
11.Canouse

My Current Pool exclusive to 1st team club guys:
Tier 1:
1.McKennie
2. D. Williams (when recovered)
3. K. Parks (barely gets in based on a couple of first team appearances)
4. C. Durkin (the same)
5. T. Adams
6. K. Acosta

Tier 2
7. J. Green
8. D. Nagbe

Tier 3
7. G. Zelalem (when healthy)
8. M. Delgado
9. K. Rowe
10. E. Hyndman
11. L. De La Torre

The Prospect Pool (Players that haven't really gotten their first taste of first team action yet):

Tier 1:
1. Carleton
2. Pomykal*
3. G. Reyna
4. Booth
5. Nyeman
6. Pynadath*
7. Acosta

Tier 2:
8. Llanez*
9. Sands
10. Mihaiilovic
11. Goslin

Who am i forgetting? This isn't an exact ranking, it's just a vague estimation of where the talent is that I can remember and think will be the priority guys over the next 4 and a half years.

Wingers (As I imagine the current fed/regime sees it)
1. Weah* (He's really a forward, but I think he can play wing too adequately)
1.Saief
2. Adams
3. Acosta
4. Arriola
5. Bedoya
6. Gooch
7. Lennon
8. Manneh
9. Amon
10. Green

My ordering of the pool:
1. Weah: Not sure how much this fits as I think he's a forward.
2. Saief: Need a lot more looks, so for now I'm going with Eurosnob Quotient
3. Amon: Very excited for him right now.
4. Adams: Not really sure where he or Acosta fit right now.
5. Acosta: The same as the above
6. Bedoya: The Veteran ingredient
7. Green: I want him central, but I still think he's beginning to find his way.
8. Gooch: Solid option
9. Lennon: Solid option
10. Manneh: Promising, and could move up really fast.

The Prospect Pool:
1. Tillman
2. Taitague
3. Wright* (I think he's a forward though)
4. Llanez* (can play centrally too)
5. De La Fuente *(Not sure where he'll play)
6. Ferreira
7. Akale*
8. Perez*
9. M. Gaines

In other threads I've talked about this, but I wanted to repeat this notion: I am no doubt forgetting options we have, both regulars and prospects (I rely on 97531 to correct me regarding prospects ), but in the midst of the despair and anger I feel about the grand party we will miss out on in two months time, the one piece of solace I have is the sheer quantity of young talented players we have. Just amateur old me, not nearly as skilled at mining the talent in the system as others, can come up with about 21 different interesting options for the central midfield that are for the most part, quite young, and capable of playing in multiple cups, and not just '22. Then add in another 19 or so players that could be options for the wings, and it's just absurd. The Prospect pool at the wing position, for me anyway, is a bit top heavy especially when you add in the fact that so many of the winger options could play either at forward or central midfield too. It's not an exageration to suggest that three or four years from now, the only guys we have to pick from in this group are really say: Tillman, and Taitague.

I've got no idea what's going to happen here, but I am excited to look at the midfield and feel confident that there are something in the neighborhood of 17 prospects that I think are high end options that really do have a decent chance of coming through and the vast majority of them are between 18-21 years old (I haven't dug very deep at all into the classes born 2002 or after). There is something deeply exciting in the knowledge that unlike previous era's of disappointment, and particularly unlike the fallow 2008-2013 development period with teens born in that 1990-1996 era, when we look at the senior team, and at the kids coming up, we're not looking at a barren wasteland. This isn't the 2013 U-20 World Cup team that most of us looked at and said, "Damn, we'll be lucky if we get 2 or 3 guys off this team that collect more than 10 Senior team caps), this is a deep, and also potentially top heavy class of young players to build the 2022 team around, and prospects to hope will come thru, in time.

It's damn exciting. As the rule of prospects goes: most won't make it, they'll typically fall into one or more of a variety of holes listed in the order of most likely hole to fall in:

1. Plateau in development, never climbing higher
2. Sustain career damaging or ending injuries.
3. Play for another country.

In the case of 1.) or 2.) I would imagine that about 90-95% of prospects we look at when they're 16 or 17 will fall into holes 1 or 2. Once they're 19-21, I would drop that number a good bit, probably in regards to 1.) to about 65-80% and by the time they're 22 and above well at that point, you just about always know what you have. There are rare exceptions, but even with them, you still usually no by around 23-24 at the latest.

If I were to guess, I would guess that out of the prospect pool for Central Midfield:

Tier 1: Senior Team Regulars
2-3 will come through

Tier 2: Senior Team depth
2-3

Wingers w/regards to the same:

Tier 1: Senior Team regulars:
3

Tier 2 Senior Team Depth:
1-2

If I'm right on how many we will hit on, then we are in fantastic position going forward, I'm hoping I'm right, of course and I think I am .




*Can play multiple positions

 

I don't agree this is long overdue, as others have said it has been the central point of contention for years now. Anyway, my thoughts:

We need to play a 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-4-1 imo. Two striker formations and the 4-4-2 in particular are like bringing a knife to a gunfight in the modern game and the only reason I could see us sticking with it so long was Jozy Altidore's flaws, he has always been ineffective at leading the line himself and necessitated a partner.

We had a similar issue with Bradley in that he could never really hold down one role himself and was good all around and never great at any one role, so we had this constant problem where we have to choose between giving Jozy the extra man, or giving Mike the extra man and lately we gave Jozy a constant partner and left Mike all alone at D mid and paid the price.

My getting that out is important, only in that I am sick of seeing everyone throw out formations based on that paradigm, instead of what actually makes the most sense to me anyway, which is reinforce the midfield and play with whichever one striker is best in that role, be it Sargeant, Weah, AronJo, Wood, or whomever at this point.

I think we need to play with four at the back, because our tendency is always to bunker and playing three at the back for us pretty much means playing five at the back no matter how you draw it up.

So for me we play a 4-2-3-1 with Adams and Mckinnie the 2 (JoGo would be nice), pulisic in the middle of the 3 with Saief on the left and whoever works best out on the right.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

 

The problem was Jozy's crew. Nagbe, Acosta, Wood, Arriola, Dempsey, Bradley.

With Trapp, Delgado, Wes he will have 3 good passers in mid and we can give him Pulisic as a partner up top - let's compare USA with (Toronto)

-------------------------------Jozy-------------Pulisic
------------------------------(Jozy)------(Giovinco)

-----Adams-----------Wes---------Trapp---------Delgado-------Yedlin
-----(Morrow)----(Vazquez)---(Bradley)----(Delgado)-----(Auro)
-----(Morgan)----(Osorio)-----

 

Jozy's problem is he has a poor first touch, poor endurance, and poor reactions.

 

i'm really tired of center mids who cant offer much in the attack and wingers who cant beat people. what happened to the days of ramos, reyna, obrien etc???

the problem with the recent midfield is none of the players who have been featured by the last few managers in midfield can do much in the final third...this is a HUGE problem and should be an eliminating factor, imo.

the toothlessness of recent center mids is compiunded by the weakness of wide mids as well.....which is a big problem too.

therefore, most of the consensus picks are not on my radar.

i like mckennie and maybe lletget as the 2 cm.

 

That is because we have very very few players who can consistently effectively accomplish much against top 100 international competition in the final third.

 

well i agree that these types of players are in short supply...but i also think there has been a bias against these types by the us soccer coaches and system itself.....and that if certain overlooked/underused players had been given more run....the team couldve have developed much differently.....

it took JK FOREVER to even look at lletget, for example....while we we played 3 dmids ad naseum....