The Lockout: Siding with someone?

Discussion in 'Ice Hockey' started by Daniel from Montréal, Nov 11, 2004.

  1. Daniel from Montréal

    Aug 4, 2000
    Montréal
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Ok, at first I was giving the benefit of the doubt to pretty much everyone but now it's gone too far. I was reading NHLPA VP Vincent Damphousse's rebuttal of a Jean Béliveau declaration blaming the players and I find it ridiculous.

    He said the PA proposed a 5% cut on every salary and essentially cutting rookie salaries and bonuses, qualifying this as "fair".

    Another article brought up an interesting point: the salary hike was helped in part by decisions that made sense in one market, but not in all, applied league-wide through arbitrators. The example given was of Theo's MVP year in 2002. This was a young keeper who had just won the MVP and Vezina trophy, but, more importantly for the Habs, he was a local boy, a bona fide superstar that sells shirts (like Roy used to do) and a media darling that sold the club very well. Now, his salary made sense in Montréal, but that doesn't mean that another keeper (say Giguère) with similar stats' contract should be matched in another city. But this is how the arbitrators worked.

    And the system would punish the many for the errors of the few, but only in one direction. If Kariya takes a pay cut to go to Colorado, that doesn't set a standard. But if the Rangers pay Bobby Holik $9m dollars for any reason, that sets a huge standard and brings all the players' salaries up by consequence.

    Coming back to the Damphousse interview, you realise one of the big problems (and this can be said of many unions): you can't take anything back. A player will know at first that he's not necessarilly worth $5m, but once he makes $5m for years, it's hard to bring him back down to "only" $2m. And you can't cut players or teams because the union will defend EVERY LAST ONE of their members - that is its nature and purpose. This is why you see the PA proposing stuff like rookie and first-year cuts in salaries when these are the players that might only play a year or two in the league: because there's no union of prospective rookies and (obviously) only NHL players are in the PA.

    With all this said, if the season is cancelled without another offer on the table, I'm blaming the players.
     
  2. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    I could see both points of view, but it is beyond a joke now. The only people I'm siding with is the fans. Both sides have taken this too far and it is not good for the game or fans. Disgraceful. :mad:
     
  3. Canadian_Supporter

    Staff Member

    Dec 20, 1999
    Prostějov, CR
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I didn't side with anyone. They are both to blame.
     
  4. Danks81

    Danks81 Member

    May 18, 2003
    Philadelphia
    I'm siding with the owners, but Bettman has gotta go. The little imp is ruining professional hockey.
     
  5. jmeissen0

    jmeissen0 New Member

    Mar 31, 2001
    page 1078
    they are both ruining it

    i don't think the nhl will survive... i think they will create a new league...

    but then again... anything can happen
     
  6. otterulz

    otterulz Member

    Arsenal, Atleti
    South Korea
    Jun 20, 2002
    LIC, NY
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think I read something about that somewhere about starting a new league. Is that a serious consideration? And if so, how would all that work out? I'd assume a lot of the current NHL clubs would be in the new league if one was started.
     
  7. DoyleG

    DoyleG Moderator
    Staff Member

    FC Edmonton
    Canada
    Jan 11, 2002
    Victoria, BC
    Club:
    FC Edmonton
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Any new league is likely to consist of the richer teams with the rest being cast off and left to their own devices.
     
  8. Gioca

    Gioca Member

    Jun 13, 2004
    Hartford
    Club:
    US Città di Palermo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's completely the owners' and the league's fault. Their irresponsibility on overspending caused it. The league wants control and wants franchises where the economics don't work, and wants the players to subsidize it. Face it, the league has gone to crap, and the players aren't relenting from their stance. BUT A SALARY CAP WOULD SUCK FOR THE FANS TOO. So the players are actually helping the fans. A salary cap would give the league too much control, and take away from the fans that really support their teams. Why should we have Atlanta vs. Nashville in the finals if the apathetic fan bases don't care?

    SUPPORT THE PLAYERS AND THE EUROPEAN LEAGUES THAT HAVE MUCH BETTER STRUCTURES!
     
  9. Birdkamp

    Birdkamp New Member

    Sep 11, 2004
    Calgary
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Doesn't matter how we got here, all that matters is its broke. The owners lived up to the agreement and now its over. Just cause they created doesn't mean they don't have the right to fix it.

    Actually I think a salary Cap would be a great idea and most people I know think so too. I am guessing your a fan of a rich team.
     
  10. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because its been so terrible for the NFL
     
  11. Gioca

    Gioca Member

    Jun 13, 2004
    Hartford
    Club:
    US Città di Palermo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not a fan of any team. I was a Hartford fan until they moved. I think salary caps are awful as a team could develop great players, then force them to move on. It will lead the NHL into becoming a sort of sports-entertainment deal like the WWF or the NFL. Look at the European soccer leagues. They seem to work without caps. The NHL has too many teams anyway and the play has become boring. I wouldn't mind if the league lost half the teams and became competitive again, but that's just me.
     
  12. Gioca

    Gioca Member

    Jun 13, 2004
    Hartford
    Club:
    US Città di Palermo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Football fans would follow the sport no matter how badly they butcher the league. The same can't be said for NHL fans. I'd like to think we're smarter than to fall for something like that. A league where the central office controls nearly everything does not appeal to me. That's probably why I hate the NFL.
     
  13. CyphaPSU

    CyphaPSU Member+

    Mar 16, 2003
    Not Far
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [​IMG]
    I found this ironic ad on the Flyers website. Too bad the ad is a waste of good webspace.

    I wish one of my favorite sports would stop their nonsense and play again. :(
     
  14. Gioca

    Gioca Member

    Jun 13, 2004
    Hartford
    Club:
    US Città di Palermo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  15. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    Generally in sports work stoppages I'll blame whoever is actually stopping the work--so in strikes I'll side with the owners, and in lockouts I'll side with the players. Still, in this case (unlike the recent MLB and NBA stoppages, which were purely about making $100 million a year instead of $80 million a year), the owners actually have a point--the league is in dire financial straits. That said, both sides are jackasses.
     
  16. Wahoo

    Wahoo New Member

    Aug 15, 2001
    Seattle, USA
    The NHL got too big too quick. They took a great game that was loved religiously by a good but not huge portion of the American viewing audience and tried to make it one of the BIG sports that was in all the major USA cities.

    Gone are the teams from the smaller (and many Canadian) markets - off to the south where it's more of a curiosity than major following. There are good fans in Atlanta, Dallas, Tampa Bay, but lets be real, the infrastructure and youth leagues that lead to a full appreciation of the sport don't exist there due in large part to climate and history.

    The NHL was all the sudden fashionable with Gretzky and Lemieux and others. The game was fast, hard hitting, and goal scoring... which we old fans always knew, but it caught on with mainstream americans.

    Then payrolls skyrocketed... teams moved to bigger cities in the USA... once there were a few players with big contracts (from the new TV money and new wealthier owners) then that sets the standard.

    You can't blame the players for taking the money that's offered... or fighting for the dollars if available. The owners created the problem by overpaying ... and their over optimistic projections of the sports future. The marketing dollars just aren't tehre as it seems they expected. The players are to blame for not looking out for the future.

    We all knew (or should have) years ago that this was coming. Heck I'm suprised it took this long. Even early last year we all knew it was entirely too likely there wouldn't be a season this year. Did anything get fixed... no (suprising to me).

    Now it's broke beyond my understanding of how to fix it. If the players want to play professionally, they are only worth what the market can bear... and it's going to be a lot less than what they had before. There just arent more dollars to be had.

    It's a shame now too... with the sports public becoming more and more alienated frmo the NBA, the NHL could have taken another step in popularity this season (in my opinion).

    Oh well... here's hopign next season we can find a way to play some games.
     
  17. petersoccer

    petersoccer Red Card

    Dec 2, 2004
    Mississauga,Ontario
    The players and owners really need to take a close look at the root cause of the problems. Too many teams . If they where to get down to 24 teams there would be a great increase in the quality of the game. As the game improverd , so would the chances of getting a TV contract worth something. The players cant ecpect tp be paid Major Leauge bucks when they dont have a Major League TV deal. The bucks just dont add up.
     
  18. Daniel from Montréal

    Aug 4, 2000
    Montréal
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    RDS is reporting that the offer will be rejected and another will br brought forward by the league.
     
  19. Gioca

    Gioca Member

    Jun 13, 2004
    Hartford
    Club:
    US Città di Palermo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Now the owners are really showing who the greedy ones are in this. They are the ones that signed the players to these deals, they're the ones that wanted to be the NFL or NBA, now they want the salary cap that the NFL or NBA has too. I hope the players really stand their ground on this.

    If the owners won't accept a 25% pay cut around the boards, they shouldn't be negotiated with at all. The players can play elsewhere, and the owners will be left with "teams" with no players.
     
  20. Daniel from Montréal

    Aug 4, 2000
    Montréal
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The problem is that the league is in trouble because SOME owners (ie those of the Rangers, Wings, Avalanche, Flyers, Leafs, etc.) hiked up the player salaries, where they could afford it and the other teams couldn't.

    The league has seen that the current system was created through mistakes and wants to correct it. No one wants the league to end up like MLB which is what was on the verge of happening. The 24% cut will be negated long before a new CBA is expired and everyone will be in more trouble.
     
  21. Gioca

    Gioca Member

    Jun 13, 2004
    Hartford
    Club:
    US Città di Palermo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Some of the small markets are just as resonsible. Remember what Carolina offered Sergei Federov? If Detroit not matched, that team would have been bankrupt years ago. However, the whole problem is Gary Bettman and his false promises that the league should compete with other American leagues of different sports and dominate the entire world of hockey. The owners bought into it and the players happily took the cash. Unfortunately, they also made fans feel obligated to support their teams financially, and many of them complied.
     
  22. petersoccer

    petersoccer Red Card

    Dec 2, 2004
    Mississauga,Ontario
    Dont put the Leafs in this bunch. They have not thrown dumb bucks around like the Rangers Flyers Mighty Ducks Kariya 10M, wings Avs.

    .
     
  23. GrumpyStoo

    GrumpyStoo New Member

    Nov 11, 2004
    Wayne, NJ
    I honestly feel a Salary Cap in the mold of the NFL/NBA will do wonders for the NHL. Bettman probally has had to bow to the greater powers in the league for a while before now. But now he has the Levitt report to back him up.

    Only thing that ticks me off is the need to change the game to entertain people. Its a sport. It will entertain people by itself if left to its own devices and care for properly. People have been complaining about The Trap, the clutching and grabing in the Neutral zone for 10 years now. Recently, Goalies improving their play like Brodeur and playing the puck with efficiency. You want to eliminate this, go to a International size Ice Surface. So much room, the trap can't work, and its practically all about offence. Non of those video game type improvements where this line is 3 feet wide, and theres a zone where the goalie can and can not touch the puck on a tuesday, but only if he's rubbing his tummy when he enters.
     
  24. petersoccer

    petersoccer Red Card

    Dec 2, 2004
    Mississauga,Ontario
    International size ice wont work. There is no room in present building for them. When they built these new arenas over the last 10 years most did not put in an ICE of that size. Plus they would loose to many prime seats.

    What the game needs is less teams, it also needs less cry babies IE owners of the Edmonton Oilers and other small minded owners.

    The game needs to get its cost in line with revenue. The 54% of revenue it has offered the players is a fair offer and with some tweeaking of other issues the game can get back on track. As a Minimum 2 teams need to go for sure. Ideally 24 teams would be great for the game.

    Teams that must go Florida Panthers, Nashville, Carolina,Atlanta.

    Any other suggestions.

    Did anyone one catch Cal Nikols owner of Edmonton on TV yesterday, What a crybabie, if you cant afford the big league then get out.
     
  25. GrumpyStoo

    GrumpyStoo New Member

    Nov 11, 2004
    Wayne, NJ
    Just like Soccer, there is a right way, and a wrong way to play the game... the NHL size rink is too small for the players today. Like playing at Spartan Stadium. Tightens the game up, just makes it unnaturally squished into a space where the true talents of players can't function. I really don't buy them 'loosing seats' cause they can adiquately adapt to that. Its 10 feet of ice on each side of the rink. 3 Rows. So u elimate 3 rows of seats, and that 4th row is now elivated. Now thats dealt with, why does this help the NHL in the long run.

    The NHL is looking for some rule changes to increase the markability of the game, and the value of the sport in general. The problems are this, low scoring, goalies who are more talented and who can handle the puck easier and the Neutral Zone is absolutely jammed packed most of the time. Lets look at things here.

    The NHL solution is much like MLS' ideas back when it started. All the gimics it had that really pissed off the fans. The Shootout. The Clock out of control of the official, and some other of the other crazier Americanizing idea's that they had at the time. If you happen to watch a AHL game today, its like watching a Video game. Lets see how many special rules we can through in there, instead of letting the men out there entertain us with their talent. Huuuuge blue line and a trapezodedial zone that the Goalies can or can't touch the pucks in or out side of. They had to come up with a whole new Rule section for Obstruction Holding to combat all the Trapping that was going on, cause u could bottle neck up the neutral zone. The current Ice Surface Worked when NHL players were the Size of Darren Pang, not when they are the size of Bobby Holik and Zdeno Chara, AND GROWING. Someone commented they might actually have a football lineman size guy buy 2015 playing hockey in the NHL, not because he can skate fast or whatever, because honestly, he can be a presense on ice to impeed other players.

    By going to a Fully International Size Hockey rink, you do many things. You eliminate the need for stupid rules, and stupid adaptations of the game, because teams are doing whatever it takes to win, and not trying to learn how to win. You eliminate the trap because its impossible to trap on a rink that size. You make it harder for goalies to play the puck, because there is such a large area behind the net. During the Olympics, did you see Brodeur try to go and play the puck that often when they dumped it in, no because it was too far from him, and too dangerous to go play the puck. Lastly, you open the ice surface up so that players such as Jagr can exploit their talents, and making teams pay if they try to double team them because they can dump it off to a teammate and suddenly theirs a 4 on 3 because 2 players are grossly out of position on a huge piece of ice. Scoring will go up. Teams will be forced to play a more aggressive game, and it will be more exciting. It is simpler Hockey. Not some convuluted version of it, like they wanted to make MLS into when it started.

    It will pay for itself in the long run, and there truely is no justifible argument against going to the larger Ice Surface.



    As for the Teams and ownerships, I hope they move teams back to WInnipeg and Quebec, before folding any. It was a grave stupidity to allow teams to be moved out of Canada. Teams there add passion, which adds money. And with a Salary Cap, gives them the Viability they need, and the certaintity to survive buisness wise. Than allow multiple 'New York Yankee' franchises run them into the ground because they can not compete.
     

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