The King's Tactics :: How Will The Team Change?

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by Twenty26Six, Jan 9, 2011.

  1. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We start off our first game on the road in the FA Cup with a 4-1-4-1.
    [​IMG]

    Notes:
    * Glen Johnson (childbirth) was replaced by Martin Kelly.

    Thoughts:

    I think these were Hodgson's tactics aimed at getting a draw and a replay at Anfield - which wasn't a bad idea.

    Dalglish probably pushed everyone forward and asked the players to pressure more without the ball. He also seemed to ask the players to play the ball on the ground more when in possession and not bypass the midfielder.

    I also thought Lucas was a bit lost all by himself as the "1" in between the "4" and "4". He might need more close company to utilize his short passing skills and awareness. When isolated, he tends to struggle. When Meireles dropped back to "partner" Lucas, the midfield looked more cohesive.
     
  2. poopoobigelow

    poopoobigelow Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 3, 2007
    VA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Egypt
    i don't think we can garner too much from this game, as we only had thirty minutes at full strength, but the most obvious is is playing the ball out of the back and not hoofing it up... this is where agger will get back to being a star for us...

    now, i just pray to fowler that he can stay healthy...
     
  3. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    http://tomkinstimes.com/2011/01/why-kenny’s-so-right-and-roy-was-so-wrong/

    Tomkins talks about Kenny in comparison to Roy. He gets the formation wrong but makes some good point about the football.

     
  4. Cody667

    Cody667 Member+

    May 10, 2010
    Sudbury, ON
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Agreed on Agger. He's got every opportunity in the world now to stay healthy and prove himself. If he does, he's one of the best CB's in the world, and not only provides Liverpool with a much needed boost on the back line, but as a bonus to himself and to his country, he provides Denmark with half of what could potentially be the scariest international CB duo in the world with him and Kjaer. Yeah, I went there.
     
  5. Vasu

    Vasu Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I think Tomkins is right, even with the formation. Gerrard wasn't the usual SS that he was under Benitez, but he was definitely an AM, playing ahead of Lucas and Meireles, without as much defensive responsibility. Then again, he was only out for 38 minutes, so we'll get a better idea of his position in the game against Everton, or is a red a straight 3 match ban?
     
  6. Red Bird

    Red Bird Member+

    Sep 30, 2003
    Oxford
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    3 game ban, I'm afraid.
     
  7. Matt Clark

    Matt Clark Member

    Dec 19, 1999
    Liverpool
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Dalglish won't revolutionise anything. He'll play players where they most obviously fit and he'll give people a chance to put together a run of form. I wouldn't be surprised to see Kelly continue at RB for the Blackpool game, for instance.

    The personnel yesterday were neither his nor Hodgson's - they were the only real options in each position based on availability, form and fitness. But they played higher up the pitch, they worked to support Torres more and the substitutions were both timely and focused. A gratifying step forward from more or less every game under Hodgson.

    In the five months available to him, he can't alter the fundamentals of the team's set-up. Hodgson tried that and it was a miserable failure. Dalglish is wise enough to know that the players are best supported by allowing them to play in a system that suits them and that they are used to - so most likely a tweaked version of the system Benitez played.

    Beyond that, his influence will be on match-day itself. Getting the right team on the pitch, giving the right instructions and, through substitutions and in-game tactical adjustments, doing what he can to maximise the impact of the players during the game.

    If he does that reasonably successfully between now and May then he's more than met his remit, because this much-maligned group of players is a lot better than their current position suggests, so let's see us put on the odd show, win the games that are there to be won and get some stability and dignity back. A continued run in the Europa League is a nice bonus, but ultimately this is Dalglish making sure that the here and now is all that it can be and steering us into port for the beginning of major surgery in the summer.
     
  8. revelationx

    revelationx Member+

    Jun 5, 2006
    London
    Now that we have a manager who will not settle for a draw away, we now have twice as many pts to play for.
     
  9. hubbabubba

    hubbabubba Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 17, 2002
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is what I saw yesterday too. I missed the first half and so missed all the fireworks, but the double substitution of Shelvey and Babel at 60' and then putting on Ngog about 15' later... you could see what he was trying to do. He put in more offensive minded players, gave them a bit of time to get up to speed and then put on Ngog. They went full attack for a good 5-10 minutes and you could see the infusion of fresh legs and attacking players put ManU on their heels a bit.

    It might have worked... and at least he tried. Roy would have just grimaced and wrung his hands...
     
  10. Red Bird

    Red Bird Member+

    Sep 30, 2003
    Oxford
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I agree with you. In fact, I have more or less been bleating about that bit on bold for the last 12 months.
     
  11. Vasu

    Vasu Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    fyp
     
  12. Kawklee

    Kawklee BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 30, 2008
    Miami
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  13. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To be fair, the picture isn't his. I actually tweeted him about it. I always saw that Liverpool team as a lop-sided 4231. Or, at the very least, it was an asymmetric 442.
     
  14. revelationx

    revelationx Member+

    Jun 5, 2006
    London
    Jonathan Wilson is a very cultured football writer but he is wrong about no team winning the Prem with 4-4-2. Wenger was well-known for playing 4-4-2 for many seasons at Arsenal - although less so in recent years. Blackburn were also described as an old-fashioned 4-4-2 under Dalglish - something to do with the wingers.

    Essentially the coach needs to play in a system that suits the players. If he prefers to play in a system that the current players are not suited then he buys the players who can play the preferred system. For Dalglish he should play a system that the current squad is used to playing, say a 4-2-3-1 like under Rafa. The players (esp Gerrard and Torres) excel in such a system. Unless Dalglish sticks around past the summer as manager, then he won't be bringing in the players to play another system - Jan might bring some new players in but it is unlikely to be a great number.

    One of Roy's failings was he tried to implement a system that did not suit the current players. Our defence struggled to cope with all the increased number of crosses that occurred due to sitting deeper than previous seasons and our build up play was stifled, leaving Torres isolated and having to field long-hoof balls. This system might have been preferred by Roy but I doubt any single player preferred it to 4-2-3-1.

    It is interesting to see what formations Dalglish will field but he has been involved in football - and mixing in coaching circles so it is not as if he will not have discussed modern coaching methodology.
     
  15. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I tend to agree with you. I think he's splitting a bunch of hairs on this one actually.

    He probably counts all of United's teams as 4-4-1-1 (with "split" forwards) and Wenger's teams as 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-2-2 (which it was at times).

    I think that he might mean no team has ever won the prem playing two wingers _AND_ two target center forwards at the _same time_. All the teams have either dropped a forward back or tucked a winger inside.
     
  16. Cody667

    Cody667 Member+

    May 10, 2010
    Sudbury, ON
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    eh I'll trust Kenny with whatever he thinks works. Hell, I bet we woulda done better with something impossibly ridiculous like a 3-2-1-4 than Hodgson's 9-0-0-Torres
     
  17. revelationx

    revelationx Member+

    Jun 5, 2006
    London
    It's a shame Jonathan Wilson did not dedicate an article to Hodgson innovative 4-5-----------------------------------------------------1 formation, and analyse whether it had ever been used to successfully win a Prem away game.
     
  18. Bobinhood

    Bobinhood Member

    Apr 22, 2005
    Toronto
    I think he'll use the obvious/only/rafa formation with gerrard free behind torres and raul and lucas being xabi and mash. Kuyts Rw. lw is one of 4.

    The defence should get sorted right away with Skrtl and Agger, and Johnson and Fabio will be expected to get forward. We dont need any more injuries here.

    and Pepes already a new man. Kenny will quickly inquire of him as to exactly how to maximize his distribution skills once again, and tailor something to suit.
     
  19. ForeverRed

    ForeverRed Member+

    Aug 18, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I think he realizes that the 4-2-3-1 is best suited for our personnel. Maxi and Kuyt are adept at cutting in, Gerrard is the best player to play of Torres, our two fullbacks are very attack minded and Lucas and Meireles can play comfortably in their zone. I really don't see a better alternative.
     
  20. Matt Clark

    Matt Clark Member

    Dec 19, 1999
    Liverpool
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Which still makes it a fatuous article. Even if you went back to the first time 4-4-2 was ever seen on a football field, you'd struggle to find a side that played like that. It's like saying no one has ever won the title with an elephant up front.

    Plus, what's the point he's making? That Dalglish will play like that? We'd have to do quite a bit of shopping first.
     
  21. Grinners89

    Grinners89 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 8, 2007
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    Pepe
    Kelly - Skrtel - Agger
    Johnson - Lucas - Meireles - Aurelio
    Gerrard - Pacheco
    Torres​


    Why not?
     
  22. Matt Clark

    Matt Clark Member

    Dec 19, 1999
    Liverpool
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Because Johnson has a hard enough time keeping in position in a back four, without the additional mental challenge of switching between attack and defence as a wing-back.

    Because adapting to playing with three centre-backs is a lot harder than it looks. Particularly when most opposing teams will play with one striker and one or two deeper runners.

    Because in your example Skrtel is the spare man in the centre of defence and he's all over the place at the moment. He'd be a liability trying to cover the channels. We'd end up playing 5-2-2-1 most of the time. And giving away several dozen penalties every game.

    Because we'd end up with Pacheco, Torres and Gerrard either dropping deep to cover midfield or getting lost up front on their own.

    Because Gerrard would do his "trying to be everywhere, trying to do everything" routine in this formation.

    Because Aurelio is too slow for a wing-back role.

    Because Mereiles is not a holding midfielder, which would be essential in a system where we're ceding midfield control.

    Because the players are clearly most comfortable with the 4-2-3-1 / 4-5-1 combination they had drummed into them in six years under Benitez and won't recover the single most important missing thing - confidence - if asked to adapt to yet another new system.
     
  23. Red Bird

    Red Bird Member+

    Sep 30, 2003
    Oxford
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    More than just the formation, I think Dalglish will try and get some confidence to return, and then after that some football basics, drummed into the players. The pass and move that Blackpool displayed with very little fanfare, for a start. I couldn't believe the number of times that players passed the ball for the sole reason of not wanting to keep it-- Skrtel, Poulsen were the guiltiest. And then not finding a team-mate with a pass, Meireles and Kuijt being the most awful.

    I think we can agree that Kuijt can be hit and miss with both with his final pass and first-time control, but I'm puzzled by Meireles's seeming disintegration over the last 2 games-- injury taken more than we thought? Last night we suffered for his complete lack of presence and touch.

    Poulsen seems to me like a player who is (used) very good with time and space and, especially, the ball at his feet. He is an absolute liability when under pressure. He is even worse positionally when we are hunting for the ball or when tackling (or not as the case may be), both qualities which could have compensated for his so obvious lack of pace. Clearly whoever bought him had never watched him in the last season or, perhaps, had in mind a completely different way of deploying him.

    Gerrard can pass and move but is most effective closer to both the opposition box and Torres. Lucas can also pass and move but far too often delays making that final ball thus killing attacking momentum. Rodriguez is fine but can disappear from the game for long periods of time. Babel is the epitome of unpredictability: on the move can produce invention and frustration in equal measure. N'gog seem to have lost his way somehow, but has good control skills-- he is still 21, after all and cost next to nothing.

    At the back, Skrtel who, ever since the two injuries, has regressed to almost an ass-- completely without confidence with the ball a this feet and easily being out-jumped by shorter men, and hustled off the ball far too often. Maybe Steve Clarke can help, here. Johnson and Aurelio, the latter especially, are more than decent. Johnson is quite effective when his mind is on the field of play but, in equal measure, produces such moments of baffling inattention that have fans in anguish at the best of time. Agger is class and, is getting to speed after injury and also being messed about.

    The makings of a good team are there but the team requires leadership and
    guidance. This is where we need a good coach. Exit Hodgson, and enter the King.
     
  24. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, for Blackpool, we started in the 4-1-4-1 again...

    Reina
    Kelly - Skrtel - Agger - Johnson
    Poulsen
    Kuyt - Meireles - Lucas - Jova
    Torres​

    ...and, it actually worked pretty well. However, defensively, it's not enough to have Lucas/Poulsen screening the back 4. Skrtel is suspect, and Agger isn't mainly a "defender", so we need some stronger defensive presence in midfield.

    In the second half, we sort of morphed into a 4-2-3-1. Meireles seemed to push up closer to Torres with Poulsen leaving his mark (Charlie Adam) to partner Lucas more.

    Overall, I thought the tactics were fine, but we were undone by some bad Skrtl defending and a lack of fitness. As our "pressing" faded, we began to waste possession.
     
  25. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Honestly, I think he's a lost cause. He can't win _ANY_ headers, let alone crucial headers. He might as well be Josemi or Kromkamp.

    Seriously, I'm a little disappointed in his regression. I'd rather have Martin Kelly playing in Skrtl's spot.
     

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