The Kansas City/Chattanooga Pro/Rel Meet-n-Greet Superthread

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by USRufnex, Nov 25, 2015.

  1. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    #1 USRufnex, Nov 25, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
    http://www.twiceacosmo.com/2015/11/...er-ill-advised-cheap-shot-chattanooga-fc-npsl

    "If you're investing billions and billions of dollars, which we are now at about $3.5 billion invested [in MLS] in twenty years, to build something in Kansas City and they have a shitty season, to think they might be playing in Chattanooga in a stadium of 4,000 people on a crappy field with no fans, makes no sense."
    -Don Garber, BlazerCon

    Well, frankly Don, the Kansas City Wizards played for years at a cavern of a stadium with no fans and no atmosphere at Arrowhead, followed by a wholly inappropriate stadium far, far worse than the current home of Chattanooga FC. Colorado played at another cavernous stadium, while you didn't seem to have a problem with San Jose playing at this stadium for six years... But this isn't what it's really about, is it, Don? Your league's business model prioritizes cradle-to-grave security for its cherished building projects, rather than seeking out situations where a club could play in an appropriately sized college football stadium with favorable lease terms, saving tens of millions that IMHO could be better spent on far more important soccer-related things.

    An Open Letter to Don Garber
    November 24, 2015
    http://www.chattanoogafc.com/news/an-open-letter-to-don-garber

    Favorite quotes:

    Starting at 15:30, El Conductor of the Chattahooligans chimes in about the MLS commissioner’s recent dumb comments at BlazerCon... http://derbycityultras.com/episode-9/
     
  2. Chesco United

    Chesco United Member+

    Jun 24, 2001
    Chester County, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Chattanooga is a very positive sign for the game in the US. I hope the CFC braintrust finds that it makes financial sense to move up to the pro level.
     
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  3. The One X

    The One X Member+

    Sep 9, 2014
    Indiana
    Club:
    Indy Eleven
    On the surface seems like a good candidate for the NASL, sadly the NASL seems to be too focused on D1, so Chattanooga isn't exactly a place they are wanting. Although if they are serious about Pro/Rel I think getting more quality teams that can average 5+k no matter the actual size of market is important, because the only problem pro/rel solves is having too many teams.
     
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  4. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The bad news for MLS is that this enthusiasm seems to be very much attached to the places where these people actually live.

    [​IMG]

    Because their's is on a National scale ... right .... RIGHT??!!!!!


    "We understand MLS owners have made billions in investments, and what businessman does not want to protect his investments? Introducing promotion and relegation would damage the financial health of your teams, and not just the ones in danger of being sent down. The mere threat of relegation would lower a MLS team's valuation and raise its borrowing costs. So, as a businessman, I understand your stance."


    ---- so you understand it, but you just don't care about the cold hard facts of the situation. Easy to do when you're the one wanting the hand out.

    "But Mr. Garber: it's a wall that must eventually fall. The United States is a nation built on hope. So to organize the world's greatest game in America in a way that deprives smaller markets the hope of glory is both ironic and unsustainable. Joe Roth said in defense of the current system that Americans love a winner; that much is true. But we love one thing even more: the underdog. Surely it's not lost on you that the Green Bay Packers are the NFL's most prolific franchise. The fan bases in places like Chattanooga (and Tulsa, and Wichita, and Madison, and Sacramento, and Rochester) are too organized and too dedicated to their cities and their sense of place to just sing along to a contrived tune from distant, larger markets. The American soccer pyramid, if it is going to achieve its full potential, has to find a way to incorporate and integrate."

    ---- and here, let me fully extend it ... dripping with bullshit. If you truly want to find a way to incorporate and integrate ... THEN DO FOR YOURSELF AND STOP WANTING A PHUCKING HAND OUT .... INVEST LIKE THEY DID ... BUILD LIKE THEY DID ... LOOK IN THE PHUCKING MIRROR AND STOP CASTING BLAME.
     
  5. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    #5 USRufnex, Nov 28, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2015
    :rolleyes:

    Cross post.

    http://www.thenutmegnews.com/curren...figure-out-if-don-garber-insulted-chattanooga

    Nashville, TN - National Premier Soccer League fan and Nashville FC fan Drew Harrod took a deep dive into city statistics, average attendance, per capita consumption of soccer and overall metroplex support on Thursday night in order to figure out whether Don Garber insulted Chattanooga FC or not.

    "Well, if his statistics are right then he was merely illuminating the situation for all of us to see. After all, if the statistics and data show that you are indeed a shit city, a shit team playing on a shit field in front a shit crowd with no money then you should be mocked relentlessly by everyone. Garber was just getting out in front of that train. I'm going to now look through city planning records and compare the growth of the urban core to that of Salt Lake to give some kind of data point to the idea of MLS expansion and the overall shit ability of your team. At this point that will help me determine if Garber's comments are 100% correct, which they likely are, at which point you all should stop whining because if a persons statistics are correct they can be a complete ass all the time."
     
  6. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [​IMG]

    Why does this get a whole thread to itself?
     
  7. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    #7 USRufnex, Nov 28, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2015
    1. Because I started the thread.
    2. Because it is located in what I feel is an appropriate forum/subforum.
    3. Because, as someone who's posted on bigsoccer for well over 15 years, I have the ability to start a thread if I feel it is appropriate.
    4. If you don't like the premise of the thread, you don't have to post.
    5. Spam, whether in the form of an inexplicably large picture of orangutangs or a picture of a dog spouting random jibberish, is unwelcome and will be reported.

    What this forum is for: PLEASE READ
    Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Jan 19, 2012.
     
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  8. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Chattanooga fans seem really sensitive.
     
  9. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As with everything else you shit out in your posts ...
    ... NONE OF THIS ANSWERS THE QUESTION POSED TO YOU
     
  10. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How in the hell does that work? Is that a permanent solution, or only for relegated clubs?

    You think the answer to making soccer more popular is to stop building soccer stadiums, and rent college football fields.

    Do you actually believe that?
     
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  11. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    Then they should fit right in with the rest of MLS fans then.
     
  12. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Meh.
    Generally very prideful people as I witnessed it.
    Which is a wonderful trait to have when discussing association football, specifically when discussing the growing of our sport in our nation.
     
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  13. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are only a handful of profitable MLS clubs. Us in Houston are one of them. To get our downtown stadium we had to make enough money as renters at a college football field and upon earning enough money and finding the land downtown, we had to allow a second tier college gridiron program full use of our new downtown home ground. So at some point on the graph that is new stadiums for soccer in our nation, your team just might be a renter until you are the owner to then be the team that rents to others for them to be in business. Ground sharing is part n parcel of sports in our nation Red.
     
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  14. QuietType

    QuietType Member+

    Jun 6, 2009
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't understand why the pro/rel crowd is trying to jump on what Garber said as if it's some controversy. What he said is true and accurate. Same reason why the thought of the New York Yankees being relegated and having to play the Albuquerque Isotopes would be stupid, or the Chicago Bulls relegated and having to play the Reno Bighorns. Garber is spot on.
     
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  15. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's not exactly what 'Nex said, or what 'Red spoke against ...

    'Nex is talking about abandoning the SSS building as we have it right now IN FAVOR OF pulling a Cosmos and renting 'an appropriately sized field' ...

    Which is stupid because:

    1 - building SSS is being done and our MLS clubs/expansion sides are getting top tier facilities built which does good for not only the club, but the league, and the sport as a whole here in the US
    2 - there's no guarantee that there's an 'appropriate sized college football stadium' to fit the bill/needs of any market that wants in (regardless of level) ... my hometown for instance (Corpus Christi) would have Buc Stadim (an 18000 seat concrete relic from '38) or Cabanes multi purpose field which is cookie cutter HS MP stadim #22345112354122.6
    3 - there's no guarantee that the 'appropriate sized college football stadium' is actually a good choice to house a professional team

    ... and other nuances about the situation of course.

    He's proposing making this trade off ... he's not talking about the necessity of ground sharing at certain points in the evolution of a club and/or league.
     
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  16. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Are you not aware that I'm a DC United fan?

    I'm pretty aware of the phenomenon of ground-sharing.

    HailtotheKing pretty much covers it above.
     
  17. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because they have a martyr complex and they're completely deluded about their "cause". They think there's a moral component to pro/rel.
     
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  18. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And THAT is the real reason why he started a separate thread for this.

    There are hundreds of business, economical and sporting realities that render this whole promotion-and-relegation concept dead on arrival.

    But those who loooooooove it so much base their opinions on romance. On stuff that makes them feel good. On things that "seem" more right. So when someone writes something rather eloquent in a way that pushes some buttons that haven't been pushed in quite that way before (as that article/opinion did), it hits the refresh button on all the zealotry as if they've got a brand new case to make -- when all it is is the same old emotional nonsense that does nothing to outweigh all of the logical reasons that have been listed time and time again.
     
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  19. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You think.
    I chimed in to highlight ground sharing as a way of life for us soccer fans. How life is even when someone, the owner of our local pro soccer team, has the money to build a SSS. Specifically that us in Houston had to make a piecemeal aggrement with local politicians to make the entire deal get finalized. I.e. the team was moved to our town because the wealthy owner wanted a better land deal for a stadium, which us in Houston secured for said wealthy owner, then the land was found in an ideal location downtown. The hold up for a year and a half was two local politicos who would not rubber stamp the deal until our MLS team ground shared with a local college team that even their own alumni don't care to show up for.


    Speaking of wealthy owners and building SSS as being done. The process to getting top tier facilities is never easy. The easy part is actually having a committed owner with a lot of financial backing.

    In Corpus there is the Hooks Stadium not that relic of Buc. I know as I went to a pro soccer match there at the Hooks venue and it was a good time. But right on.

    Like I mentioned, to get a long and tough to hammer out SSS deal done, it just might have to double as a college football stadium. Appropriate size would be a talking point.


    Check.
    Got that.
    That is why I did not quote his post. Take it easy.

    Then why are you not focusing on my specific points of having to deal with 11th hour politicos that want to include college gridiron teams in some packaged deal "or else" when a soccer owner has ironed out 99% of the whole SSS process.
     
  20. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    That is NOT what I said... btw, which monkey are you in that mean-spirited and nasty pic the moderator refuses to delete from this thread? :rolleyes:

    I said this: "Your league's business model prioritizes cradle-to-grave security for its cherished building projects, rather than seeking out situations where a club could play in an appropriately sized college football stadium with favorable lease terms, saving tens of millions that IMHO could be better spent on far more important soccer-related things."

    I never said building stadiums could not be a part of the equation. I never said they shouldn't be part of the equation.
    I question MLS's priorities.

    BUILD. THE CLUB. FIRST.
    (not the soccer-only stadium)

    Then, in what is politically reasonable for most American cities, you become (over the course of years) a solid player in your community and THEN you can then properly negotiate for a multi-purpose stadium in a more desirable location in which you are either landlord or first tenant.
     
  21. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    #21 USRufnex, Dec 2, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
    Garber used an extreme example by picking on a small market 4th division team.
    It was decidedly mean spirited and meant to belittle and ridicule, much like what the anti-Pro/Rel crowd on this forum engages in on a regular basis.

    And no, he's not "spot on." He picked on a club in Chattanooga that would need a series of miracles in order to move up, which is one reason why I started this thread in the first place... I'm more than happy to post with the actual difficulties Chatt would experience moving up via promotion and the near unthinkable series of events that would need to take place before Sporting KC could ever be relegated to the 4th Division NPSL.

    To be spot on, Garber should have accurately pointed out that if Sporting KC were to have "one bad season," they'd first be relegated to the NASL where they would have to play road games at a high school football field in Yukon, OK against Rayo Vallecano's American B-team.

    The point I was trying to make by complaining about MLS's stadium priorities dates back to when Abbott, Hunt, Garber and company proactively came to Tulsa with hat in hand in the spring of 2002 (Hunt had been there a few times in the 1990s). They insisted Tulsa build them a soccer specific stadium using public money from the next civic initiative. And they couldn't have had a more open-minded partner in former Mayor Lafortune. Hunt took the mayor and his entourage to both Arrowhead Stadium and to Columbus Crew Stadium to highlight the reasons why MLS needs these soccer specific facilities. They made a highly persuasive case.

    MLS told Tulsa officials and the local press that Skelly Stadium (now Chapman Stadium) was completely unacceptable to them. Didn't seem to matter that it was well known at the time that the university was raising millions of dollars to downsize, upgrade, and possibly widen the field and convert it to grass. The mayor, afraid that the soon-to-be-proposed taxpayer funded SSS was already being labeled a "soccer-only stadium" by its critics, nixed the stadium from Vision 2025 but kept in contact with MLS in order to look at a combination of future TIF's and bonds to build a downtown stadium to house a relocated Kansas City Wizards. They'd even partnered with the new owners of DC United in late 2005 for a downtown mixed use real estate complex including soccer stdium...

    Once it became apparent that DC's Gallery Place developers didn't have the kind of money Garber thought they had, and that Hunt was using the Tulsa proposal to leverage a new ownership group in KC, the soccer stadium idea was replaced by a new ballpark. And Tulsa, a once proud soccer city, did without any kind of professional soccer from 2000 to 2015. IMHO, it didn't have to be that way.

    I went to Chapman Stadium a few weeks ago, wondering what could have been if the field was widened and converted to grass, the home of a strong professional club that endears itself to its community BEFORE that club tries to get that community to accommodate plans for a new stadium... yet these are the times we live in, where you need new stadium plans in place before you can even get a USL club... new stadium plans and a $5 mil check payable to the league... Even these stadiums will involve a certain amount of ground sharing. Of course, my favorite is this one... IMHO, I just wish we'd stop having to put the cart before the horse.
     
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  22. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because what was true for Houston was not true for other MLS teams.

    USRufnex was proposing that as a blanket solution. Good luck making that work in the DC Metro area.
     
  23. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    I'm sorry, I can't see the rest of the thread through all that whine.
     
  24. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    #24 USRufnex, Dec 2, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
    No, I wasn't offering a blanket solution. Nothing could be further from the truth.
    Besides, DC United doesn't enter in, because they've had years and years advantage in the first division so that you (and all the other original MLS clubs) now have a twenty year presence in your respective communities.

    In fact, if anything, I was arguing what was true for Tulsa before they could be granted a team.
    Why is it that you (and others) consistently read into my posts things that are simply not there? Is it because I've said I'd like (not "loooooooove") to see some sort of Pro/Rel in America some day?

    Because God forbid any fan of the sport of soccer see something he really likes about aspects of the game as played in most other countries and sees how it could have benefits here in the states.

    I was also arguing in the context of Chattanooga's Finlay Stadium which I believe, with their new turf, would ironically be a good MLS venue (size, amenities, location).

    One more thing: Do I have to say in every post that I think Pro/Rel involving MLS is pie-in-the-sky... because I have done so many times? In the other thread alone, do a search of "pie-in-the-sky" and put in my handle... you'll find I've said it twenty five times. What do you want from me?

    I was offering a college stadium option that MLS currently implies is beneath them.
    Jeebus.
     
  25. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    Don't be a dick. :rolleyes:
    Is that "whiny" enough for you?
     

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