The JK Rowling/Transgender Discussion

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by JohnR, Aug 1, 2020.

  1. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    When skimming media accounts of the dispute between J.K. Rowling and many (for lack of a better term) progressives, I can't find her sin. I can find accounts of various things she has written, along with general comments that those make her transphobic, but I can't find where somebody takes a specific quote and shows the reader why that comment should be condemned.

    I would welcome such attempts.
     
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  2. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
  3. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United FC USOpenCup Champions
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I skimmed over the article, looking for the part where she said trans folks are more likely to be pedos, but I didn't see it.
     
  4. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    I’m not aware of the pedo part. I think she said something that misconstrued sexual and gender identity, just after using material from a transphobic person:





    But all in all, I don’t feel I’m qualified to offer a detailed explanation of what JKR said but I understand the backslash she’s experiencing. I don’t feel that she should keep digging there, specially when she is a very useful speaker for homelessness and domestic violence.
     
  5. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Mea culpa.

    My wife read to me while we were driving the exchange between Rowling and Watson and Granger. She says I am misremembering the excerpt.
     
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  6. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Watson and Granger are the same person.[​IMG]
     
  7. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    in the Rowling/Gu exchange, Rowling did not say that sex (by which she means what I think of as gender, but it seems that gender has a different meaning, which is fine, I am happy to use different terminology) was binary. Nor did she say that intersex or trans individuals are less real than her identity. Gu implies that she believes those things, but I don't see that in her tweet.
     
  8. Sounders78

    Sounders78 Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Olympia
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    It was explained to you, you just didn't accept the explanation, for whatever reason.

    Her comment was something along the lines of to be a woman you have to menstruate (I am paraphrasing based on memory). That is factually and scientifically WRONG. There's no way around this, it was FACTUALLY and SCIENTIFICALLY WRONG.

    She confused biology and gender, treating them as if they are synonymous with each other. They aren't. This was explained to you already in the other thread.

    To make an analogy, not a perfect analogy but hopefully it will start you on the way to understanding the problem, what if she said to be African (a cultural identity related to discrete categories of cultural understanding) you have to be black (skin color is based on biology, existing on a continuum)?

    Do you see the problem now?

    Not all Africans are "black". Not all "blacks" are African. Making this association denies and discredits other people who don't fit her understanding of reality. It confuses biology with cultural identity.

    Likewise, not all who menstruate (menstruation is based on biology) are "women" (a cultural identity related to discrete categories of cultural understanding). Not all "women" menstruate. The gender term "woman" is not a biological construct. Don't treat it as such. Female/male/intersex are biological categories, man/woman are gender categories.

    It is not appropriate for her to dictate, using anti-scientific understandings, who should be considered what simply because of her ill-informed prejudice. She is trying to define biology using cultural constructs. That is NOT appropriate. This isn't rocket science.

    She then goes on to make various other incorrect statements on the people she incorrectly labeled, which furthers the problem.

    For example, she apparently got into the entire bathroom discussion about how letting transwoman use a woman's toilet would open the door for heterosexual cisgender men to rape women. Do you see the problem with this argument, one that is popular in American society? Because heterosexual males are rapists, all transwomen should be punished. The problem, yet again, is heterosexual males - punish them and leave the LGBT community alone! But it's easier for heterosexuals to target the LGBT community than it is to deal with your own sins.

    And "thank you" so very much for starting yet another thread about transgender people so that cisgender heterosexuals can talk about transgender people, and inevitably do so in a way that is not based on science - biological or social - incorporating endless stereotypes and false information.

    I've had my say and I'm out of here.
     
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  9. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    F*ck me. Obviously I meant Watson and Radcliffe.
     
  10. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    It doesn't take much to get this place rolling. :rolleyes:
     
  11. Smurfquake

    Smurfquake Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 8, 2000
    San Carlos, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All I can say is that if you're following and agreeing with Nazis on social media, and people politely point out to you that they're Nazis, and take a bunch of time to explain in great detail why being a Nazi is bad, and your response is basically "hey, I just like that they keep the trains running on time" and you keep hanging out with the Nazis, people may start to think that you're OK with Nazis and maybe you don't have a problem with the bad things Nazis are known for. People have spent a lot of time trying to convince JK Rowling that she's hanging out with a bunch of bigots, and she keeps hanging out with them, so the conclusion is that either she's also a bigot, or she's just fine with their bigotry. Guilt by association? Maybe. It's not that tough to disassociate yourself from bigots, but she hasn't done so.
     
  12. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Actually, her implication was the opposite. To menstruate you have to be a woman. I would guess that you say that is not correct, because woman is a gender construct. (Which you state in ALL CAPS as being a scientific fact, but Wiki says that the notion of a gender construction is a sociology/feminist theory. Any links for the fact part?)

    If you prefer, we can ignore the topic, not learn anything, and vote Republican.
     
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  13. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    If JK's friendships distract from the topic, I am happy to drop her from the discussion. Her comments are just the starting point.
     
  14. Sounders78

    Sounders78 Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Olympia
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    #15 Sounders78, Aug 1, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
    Which is simply ********ing wrong. What part of that is so difficult for you to understand? Why is that so ********ing difficult for you to understand?

    Let me use a reference that high school students go to that, had you done even a basic minimal search you would have found:
    Now, you'll note it incorrectly says raised as males instead of as men, but that just highlights the widespread ignorance that exists. People raised as MEN can MENSTRUATE. Menstruation is not confined to women. This is not Feminist Theory speaking, it is basic BIOLOGY. You might not like that biology is more complicated than your perceptions, but just as the sun does not revolve around the earth, contrary to what is so obvious to our eyes, so biological sex and gender do not always align either.

    Again, man/woman does not equate directly to male/female. I don't care if it comes from feminist theory or Darwin's theory, it doesn't change the FACT that gender and biological sex ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

    It's a shame you're not able to actually read and understand any scientific articles. If I didn't know better I'd assume you're a Republican.

    Let me explain to you why people like you ********ing disgust me. Yesterday, I had to spend 10 minutes explaining to my neighbor that homosexuals and pedophiles are not the same thing. That because I'm gay does not automatically make me a pedophile. You see, he assumed that because there are pedophiles high up in government (the Clinton pizzagate and Epstein were the basis for this "knowledge"), I have nothing to worry about because they are all gay. Pedophile=gay is such a common association I have had to explain it away numerous times. I am gay, I am not a pedophile. It's this absolute stupidity and ignorance by heterosexual cisgender males in particular, to denigrate gays and transgender because we are not like you, that infuriates me. Rather than actually think through anything, actually learn anything, you spout out absolute nonsense that is used to denigrate and deny rights to the LGBT community. I'm fed up with it. You should know better. You are generally not a stupid individual.

    You should know that because there are (at least) three categories of biological sex and two categories of gender in this society, that biological sex and gender identity DO NOT LINE UP, so any statement that uses one as a synonym of the other IS AUTOMATICALLY PROBLEMATIC. I don't give a damn if you try to dismiss this as feminist theory, YOU ARE WRONG.

    And I've already ********ing given you examples of societies that recognize more than two genders. The Bugis of Indonesia recognize five gender categories. That automatically shows gender construction is not the same as biological categories of being. By Zeus this is infuriating.

    Now ********ing leave me out of this conversation. Try doing some reading - you have access to scientific books. Try educating yourself.
     
  15. Sounders78

    Sounders78 Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Olympia
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    If you do so, then you demonstrate you just want a thread where you can spout out ignorant understandings of who transgender people are or should be. You want yet another thread where cisgender heterosexual males can debate the legitimacy of other people. I find that disgusting.
     
  16. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    The bolded part. That is wrong. You are blithely ignoring that it is wrong. You aren't making a genuine effort to see why it is wrong or why others are pointing it out. You seem to just want to argue.

    It isn't anyone else's responsibility to make you understand. That's your responsibilty.
     
  17. phedre44

    phedre44 Member

    SKC
    Apr 1, 2008
    Kansas
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Guess this is a woman then:

    [​IMG]
     
  18. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    OK, I understand the issues now. Called my son, who knows this topic well.. I should have done that in the first place. This board is useful for some topics, but not for those that set off high emotions.
     
  19. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I do not understand this reference.
     
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  20. Sounders78

    Sounders78 Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Olympia
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    And by "set off high emotions" you mean topics that denigrate and question the legitimacy of groups of people. Perhaps we should discuss how heterosexual males are inherently rapists? Just because you personally haven't raped anyone yet (I assume, but I could certainly be wrong), doesn't mean you're not predisposed to being a rapist. Perhaps we should debate your constitutional or societal rights on the fact that you are probably going to be a rapist at some point. You see, this is the genre of stuff we deal with on a constant basis.

    If it's who I'm thinking of, I believe this person has XX chromosomes, so genetically a female.
     
  21. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't leave me in suspense!
     
  22. Sounders78

    Sounders78 Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Olympia
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I invite you to watch the old documentary "You Don't Know Dick".
     
  23. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    That happens to me......a lot! :confused:
     
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  24. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    #25 JohnR, Aug 1, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
    That doesn't connect with what I wrote, but I guess you could. I wouldn't be offended. But admittedly, it's easier for those of us in the majority to shrug off such comments.
     

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