Is it possible that someone can hold a different opinion from you, for legimate reasons and not be an ignoramus?
I hate to say I told you so, but....... I was dressed down unceremoniously last week for venturing the opinion that Irish teams, regardless of the sport they're playing, typically do not do well when they/their fans perceive themselves as favourites. I don't understand how we can make generalisations like "The French are bad travellers", "The Italians don't like the cold weather", "The Spanish have fiery tempraments" or whatever without accepting that we are crap favourites. Same rules. On the display- me and my mates actually started getting a good laugh out of Kilbane's display. He has one trick - kicking the ball outside his marker and running after it. Every time he got the ball, one of us would venture "here's the trick".....and sure enough, every single time, it inevitably followed. Either that or a hopeless hoof into Row X disguised as a cross. The player is just pathetic and should be ditched asap. I will open myself up to be shot down again for pessimism/pragmatism now.......I think we will struggle against Switzerland at home. If anyone saw some of the Basle players against Celtic, you'll know what I mean. We are really going to have to battle to secure even second place in this group.
speaking one one trick wonders.......when harte get the ball he'll inevitably run 5-10 yards with it, stop, look up and hit a bloody awful pass to one of the front players. if he hits it low, he puts too much power behind it which gives duff and keane problems trying to control it or he'll hit it too high. we all know our forwards are vertially challenged and can simply never compete with 6foot plus defenders in that respect
Re: Re: The Inevitable Happens After seeing Russia in the world cup I was pretty confident of our chances... Then, after seeing the Russian defending in the first 20 mins of the game I was absolutely sure that we would win... Unfortunately about 90% of our team had really bad games and could not take advantage. The only two players who even half performed were Kinsella and Keane... and Duff was clattered a few times and picked up an injury. After the match I am still confident that we will qualify as it is extremely unlikely that we will play SOOO badly again and I think we will beat Russia in Ireland. I also think the Russians will drop points in their other games...
Point taken, I forgot about him when posting in a drink-induced haze on Sunday morning. Until he's playing regularly in the United first team though, I can't see McCarthy giving him much of a chance. However, I do think he'll be Ferdinand's partner sooner rather than later.
P*ssed off............. Well......I am gutted........what a high we were on going into the game.......we just dont do being favourites well............... Kilbane........no skill whatsoever......I have seen better sunday league wingers............his only trick for beating defenders is to try and knock the ball past and run after it.............his crosses in the match were awful as well............ Ian Harte had a better game than Steve Finnan......that should show us that it was just a bad day at the office................. Breen...why does he commit himself in the box.......he always does it...Iran home leg / Russian second goal + many more.........as a top class sunday league defender myself its something I keep noticing about him......... My biggest concern was actually still Holland and Kinsella.........no creation whatsoever..........would healy offer more?....... Robbie Keane.....hero....only one with any real passion..... Clinton.......got bashed but looked to spend most of his time on his heels.....did not look sharp but his first touch for the goal should give us all hope that he will have a role to play......what was all that bracing he had to put on before coming off the bench.?......maybe doherty was the answer for this first substitute? Doherty......did well.......is he our defensive solution or will he enable us to play big man/little man upfront that has brought us so much success over the years? Duff......knocked us when he left the pitch...he was getting into it as he got injured.........he got the injury when he ended up making a last ditch tackle when a russian was clean through........ Babb......why did he bring him on?......another weird one from Mick...'again' Anyway....its Monday and I feel deflated over the whole thing.......... closey
Why does everyone keep saying that Mark Kinsella is not creative - he is!!! Not creative like Zidane but not many are... Did he not play that chip over the top for our first goal versus Finland? Did he not play the ball through to Finnan for our 1st goal versus Russia?? Not sure on this one. He's such an under-rated player and has been getting rave reviews for his performances for Villan this year.
Kinsella IS creative, but he can't be our playmaker AND bear the brunt of trying to hold midfield as well - unless Holland starts to impose himself more, or we get Colin Healy, or maybe Carsley in, then we're not going to get the most out of Kinsella.
Don, I see your point, but something has to change, and an injection of youth can work when it isn't Kevin Kyle, look where it got Man United. Young hungry players, hunger is something Holland seems to have completley forgotten about, and he isn't the only one. I wouldn't play that team right away, but it is one for the future, no doubt.
As Joyce would have had it, shite and onions! Irish people need to get over this mindset that we struggle as favourites. Otherwise, all achievements will remain modest ones. There is no crime in being favourites and carrying it off simply boils down to attitude and mental toughness. The reason why Keane is a breed apart from most Irish sportsmen and -women is that he lives and breathes these two attributes. Second-best is exactly that and he wants no part of it. There may be other issues that come with the Keane-package, but like Sonia O'Sullivan, Keith Wood, Kevin Moran, and a handful more, he is both Irish and a natural-born winner. If only we could bottle what they have (or give the job to Brian Kerr!). You have only to look at German sides to see the proof of the pudding. They believe in themselves fully and achieve accordingly. Look at the current side, thrashed 5-1 at home, yet bounced back within a year to be WC-finalists, despite the loss of key players due to injuries! All that said, I do not know if this issue of wearing the "favourites' tag" applies to last Saturday. For me, tactics played the most significant role in Russia's success and our downfall.
To be honest, Saturday WAS frustrating. But one bad game does not make a hitherto decent team suddenly a bad one. If this IS the Irish team we have got used to seeing in the past few years, I think they will be out to set the record straight against the Swiss with a more focused and aggressive performance. I think they took their eye off the ball this once and, with a bit of luck, it will prove one more very useful lesson on the way to forming possibly our best-ever side. That said, there remains issues, particularly at the back. However, they may only be resolved by time, as the likes of Carr gets back to full fitness and O'Shea learns more about life at the top. Similarly, a season in the Premiership ought to see Clinton Morrison become a hot contender to partner Robbie Keane upfront. While, in time, Damien Duff will hopefully find his way back out onto the left-wing. In the short term, the obvious name for the chop is Kevin Kilbane. He badly needs to find some form or the younger lads will push him out of both Sunderland and Ireland. Anyway, you have only to look at what is on the way up in terms of reserves to know we are in a good medium-term position and we just need to get the short-term situation sorted out.
Some rather interesting replies here and on other threads. The end of the world as we know it? Not really. There is no doubt that this was as bad a performance in recent years as has ever been seen. It even brings back memories of the bad old days in the early/mid 80s where Ireland promised so much and always manged to find a way to screw up. So what went wrong?. Well, the blame needs to be scattered far and wide on this one. Firstly, let's look at McCarthy. For the first time in a while, he got it really wrong tactically. Whereas at the WC, Ireland frequently had opponents on the backfoot (even if they could not find a way to finish them off), there was no time Ireland really controlled the tempo, even when they scored. In the first 20 minutes Ireland were beginning to look OK, but then lost it with the 1st Russian goal. Ireland's ascendancy was mirrored by Duff's time on the field. His loss and Ireland's subsequent loss of control of the game is not a coincidence. Where McCarthy really lost it was at half time. Injuries aside, substitutions are rarely made in the 1st half. At the half, he saw that the defense was in trouble and so was the partnership of Kinsella and Holland. Yet it appears he did little more than encourage them to play better. At 2-0, the game was not irretrievable, but conceding another goal would be curtains. The second half brought more of the same for the midfield and defense. Usually McCarthy's substitutions have an effect on the game, and while 2 of them scored, it is debatable whether the right substitutions were made. Holland was having a lousy day, as was Finnan. Breen and Cunningham were only marginally better, yet the 4 of them finished the game. McCarthy had no real answer to the way the Russians came at Ireland throught the middle. What I admire about him, say against Germany, is his ability to change formations when the going required. Yet here it seemed that he almost refused to believe what he was seeing. His last substitution was not as bad as it seemed. He had obviously decided to go for broke and much like the German game (except he was too late here) went for 3 across the back, with everyone else pushing forward. Kilbane was tired, having run himself into the ground, and perhaps with memories of Finnan's set up against the Dutch, he chose to take him, rather than Finnan, off. The last time I think McCarthy got it this wrong was against Croatia, and even then he nearly arsed it. This was a tactical blunder on McCarthy's part. But not all of the blame can be laid on McCarthy shoulders. He picks the team, the players are supposed to play. The defense was shambles. Nobody seemed to be calling the offs and Finnan had the worst game he's ever had for Ireland. He was too often out of position and even though I'm no fan, he needed Keane to bite his bollocks for that. Cunningham didn't provide much, or any, leadership, but I think that was more to do with being overwhelmed with his job that being overawed with the armband. Breen also chose a bad time to revert to yesteryear, though not having started a game for West Ham yet must be at least part of the reason. Harte played well, better than any game in the WC. The midfield was far from being in sync. Holland had a dreadful game. Too often he went missing and was not there to either bite for the ball or available for the emergency out pass. As someone who I thought should be captain, this was no way to impress. Kinsella was too quiet, but didn't have a bad game. Kilbane did some decent running, but he really lacks the ability to put that inch perfect cross into the box. Mind you, foot or yard perfect would occasionally do. But he does give great defensive cover to Harte. McAteer did play well and was unlucky to be taken off, but am I alone in thinking that he never looked like producing any magic? Robbie was his usual self, though had to come too deep bytimes to get the ball. Doherty played well and could be effective in games to come as a target man a la Quinn in the WC. Morrisson had an OK game, but goes to ground much, much too quickly. While he has a somwhat impressive goals to start ratio, this was his first competitive goal. I'm not convinced he has learned the difference between Division 1 (he's played 1? 2? full games in the Premiership so far) and international level yet. A more experienced forward would learn to stay on his feet more - unless he were Italian! Also, he has to learn the value of holding the ball more. I believe he lost the ball that led to Bestchastnykh's goal. I also believe that the whole team and management underestimated Russia. A WC campaign that was seen as successful, a handy 3-0 away win over Finand, and the team et al believed that the ball was really going to bounce its way. Russia, aka USSR, have lost 1 competitive game (perhaps 2) at home in something like the past 50! years. That's better than Lansdowne. Also, the Russians had something to prove after their WC campaign. If they had made the R16 or the QFs, I really believe Ireland would have come out of there with a draw or even sneaked a win. But this was a team playing for pride, redemption and a new coach. McCarthy took a gamble that he would not be prodding a wounded bear in this opening game. He lost. This is not the end of the world for Ireland. It was one bad game where pretty much everything that could have gone wrong did go wrong. And it's stupid to think that McCarthy must go. After one game? When he has already shown himself to be pretty astute overall. He didn't just lose half his footballing knowledge with his last sneeze. He took over in 1996 with an ageing team and got them to the playoffs for the '98 WC. Went out on away goals. Same story with Euro 2000, with essentially this team which hadn't really matured. Then he qualifies, and more, for the '02 WC. Somewhere, somehow, his detractors have got to give him a little credit. It can't be when Ireland wins they got lucky or the players played well, and when they lose it's his fault entirely. There's a saying in football that teams don't get bad or good overnight. Germany loses 5-1 at home in September and 10 months later they outplay Brazil in the 1st half of the WC Final. This is a good wake up call, however, because too many people were talking about how far Ireland was going to go in Portugal in '04. "Would we make the semis? Would we win it?" At least now Ireland knows it has a real job on its hands. (Would Keane have made a difference? Only speculation, but I think Ireland were so bad that night, they still would have lost. Maybe not by 2 goals and maybe Russia wouldn't have scored 4, but then again, he was injured, wasn't he? Can you say that and not be accused of slandering him, BTW?) The proof, or otherwise, of this game will be seen in Lansdowne against the Swiss next month.
Shite and onions?! Well, what part of "we are not good favourites" is shite and what part is onions? I will gladly peruse the history books and dredge up display after display which shows that we do not bear the mantle well. I'm not disagreeing that we need to get over it - of course we do if we ever want to achieve. I'm simply stating that in the here and now, it is true. To claim its 'shite and onions' is flying in the face of fact. We're so keen to pass crass generalisations on other nations, why can't we apply the same rules to ourselves? On the favourites tag.....maybe we weren't in the strictest sense of the word. But it would be churlish to deny that we went into this game with a higher sense of expectation than we have for any similar game for a long time. And we are the group's no.1 seeds, and thus are favourites to fill the no.1 slot according to UEFA.
Nigel, Reading your original post again, I probably took you up wrongly. I thought you were being fatalistic, i.e. "we always balls it up when expectations are high, so why be surprised about what was inevitable?" My annoyance stemmed from that as I firmly believe that as far as underdogs can occasionally go in sport, it is the team that believes it has the right to win that usually walks away with the prize. For example, despite all the shocks this summer, it was still Brazil who were champions. Thinking and acting as winners is a lesson generations of Irish sportspeople have had great difficulty in taking on board. The "why" is beyond me, but I suspect that chap from Roscommon who writes a column in the Irish Times would say its to do with our colonial history or some tosh!