NSR: The History Thread

Discussion in 'Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, & the former Soviet Repu' started by Zenit, May 20, 2010.

  1. FootyFan365

    FootyFan365 Member

    Jun 23, 2008
    Indy
    Club:
    FC Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk
    Nat'l Team:
    Ukraine
    Yea I've DVR'd some of those over the weekend, this thread and Memorial Day weekend got me in war history mode now :) Also watched Ultimate Factories, M-1 tank. Did you guys know that a new Abrams tank hasn't been built from scratch since like '92? They reuse all the old parts and rebuild them like brand new. Pretty awesome.
     
  2. Zenit

    Zenit Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 3, 2000
    Above the Tear Line
    Club:
    Zenit St Petersburg
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    This is some classic stuff....

    http://www.soviet-empire.com/

    At first glance, looks to be a forum for Soviet history buff, UK site...but lo and behold, there are quite a few dyed in the wool communists hanging around there ;) Great stuff!!!
     
  3. Zenit

    Zenit Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 3, 2000
    Above the Tear Line
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    Zenit St Petersburg
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    Victory Day Parade 2001, part I (Russia Today):

    http://www.youtube.com/user/RussiaToday#p/u/11/Si2ZniRbtVA

    Peter Lavelle is pretty knowledgeable, and his "Untimely Thoughts" email discussion reflector is IMHO the best for topical discussion, but he needs to limit his on-camera appearances, he comes off like such a stooge. Styill, I suppose it is better than when RT unwittingly employed Mark Ames (of all people, of eXile.ru infamy) as a (get this) tourist guide (!) for a few months before they realized who he was ;)

    Part II:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/RussiaToday#p/u/8/csTImI8ruwg
     
  4. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Hollywood, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Nat'l Team:
    Ukraine
    sad, very sad.
     
  5. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As a person with more of a socialist view of the world, I don't find anything particularly wrong with communism, although I don't feel it is the best form of policy. Soviet apologists however, leave me with feelings of confusion, pity and head shaking stupidity.
     
  6. Dimuha

    Dimuha Member

    Oct 18, 2007
    northpole Chicago
    Club:
    CSKA Moskva
    Nat'l Team:
    Russia
    Most communists have good intentions, they honestly believe in equality and workers rights.
     
  7. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Like I said, I have nothing against communists. I don't agree with all of their ideas, but I'm more inclined to view them favorably than libertarians. It's the people who try to white wash the Soviet Union as a worker's paradise of equality (of which there are some on this site, though thankfully not in our forum) that confound me.
     
  8. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Hollywood, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Nat'l Team:
    Ukraine
    There really are two kinds of Soviet communists (in my personal experience):
    1. An ideological communist, a true believer in the ideas of communism
    2. A communist of convenience: knowing that being a member of the Communist party provided you better opportunities in career advancement, they joined in hopes to move ahead.

    My grandfather was the former type - he fought in two wars and truly believed in the ideas. He never advanced. He worked at the "Bilshovyk" factory for 35 years (not including the war years) until retiring at 75 and one month before his death. On his deathbed, in 1980, he told my father and a few other relatives "We lost" and blessed their attempt to leave the country, something that was practically impossible back then.

    My uncle, on the other hand, knew that he could not advance not being a communist and being Jewish (a double whammy, if you ask me). He joined the Party and, soon after, he was the leader of the Bridge-building concern "KievMostoStroi" (or whatever it was called then). In fact, he was the leader of the efforts to build the Southern Bridge and the Moscow Bridge in Kyiv.

    So, I do not like lumping all communists into one heap.
     
  9. Dimuha

    Dimuha Member

    Oct 18, 2007
    northpole Chicago
    Club:
    CSKA Moskva
    Nat'l Team:
    Russia
    Spot on post. ^
     
  10. Zenit

    Zenit Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 3, 2000
    Above the Tear Line
    Club:
    Zenit St Petersburg
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    1. I am assuming that you mean, you don't find anything particularly wrong, other than the fact that it is a relatively useless theory, as it goes against virtually every instinct and tendency of human nature and behavior.

    2. Well, there's more than a few on that site, lemme tell ya. Heh, British communists, always a curious lot, extending their lineage to the original Luddites...I guess I'm not surprised there are still a lot of true believers still left.

    I think G is pretty accurate when it comes to categorizing who is and is not a communist these days, and in the past. I would consider by the end of the USSR, 90% or better of the membership of the KPSU was the "advantageous" type of communist rather than the true believers. I would say the same of Zyuganov's lot in the KPRF these days - one has to be an idiot not to look back at history and see how completely sideways the whole communist experiment went in the USSR, and rather quickly at that. Rather than being somewhat realistic, perhaps modifying their stance to somewhat of an adaptive libertarian socialism that *might* be viable in the modern world, they stubbornly stick to their old notions, as in reality it is the only way they will ever attain their old positions of priviledge.

    BTW, what's wrong with libertarians, RC?
     
  11. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is nothing "wrong" with libertarians per se, I just think that there beliefs about governing and economic systems are not the best. The same way I don't believe the ideas of communists about owning the means of production are the best cure to the ills of modern capitalism.

    Neither of Goliath's groups I have a problem with. The group that bothers me is those people, both inside the FSU and outside that try to whitewash the Soviet era.
     
  12. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This thread needs a revival.

    I'm currently playing Hearts of Iron II, which is an older game, maybe 7 or 8 years old. It's basically a giant strategy game that's sort of like risk, but it's a historical simulation. You take control over a country from 1936 to 1963 (with the expansion pack) and essentially have to navigate all the historical events of that period. (For example if you are the Czechs you have the option to fight Hitler in 1938 instead of giving up etc.) It is based on the premise that the Soviet Union and US led allies go to war after the conquest of Germany. Right now I'm in 1945 as the US and after defeating Germany the Soviets declared war on me. They kicked my ass at first, driving me back deep into Europe before I held a line.

    So the question is, what do you think would have happened if the Soviets and Americans had gone to war in '46 r '47 when they almost did? I'm interested to see the responses.
     
  13. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    Well, Americans had the A-bomb and Soviets didn't. So not sure anything would have happened.
     
  14. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well that certainly would strike me as a good reason why there wasn't a war, but if we're just going to write it off that the US nukes Russia and Game over, well then I'm going to be sad.
     
  15. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    Ok, so what assumptions are we following in this hypothetical scenario? I mean since we are doing this for kicks and giggles, we need to lay down some basic "terms."
     
  16. Zenit

    Zenit Moderator
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    Jun 3, 2000
    Above the Tear Line
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    Please upgrade to HOI III on the Steam Network so you can help me figure out that game. looks intriguing, but I've just never gotten the hang of it.
     
  17. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, does anyone know what the US's capability to produce nuclear bombs was? I mean, could they have just dropped unlimited numbers of them all over the Soviet Union or was there some limit at least?
    I've only read a few reviews of the third version which basically says it is even more in depth than the 2nd one, which I consider insane. You should only get into this game at your own risk, it can ruin your life. :)
     
  18. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Hollywood, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Nat'l Team:
    Ukraine
    I play "Total War" games and I am loving them. They are all from different historic periods with very good detail and two levels of action (battles - in real time down to individual units and strategy over a map)

    I am hooked.

    I've played the original "Total War: Shogun" after which I moved on to
    "Total War: Medieval"
    "Total War: Rome" (with Barbarian Invasion expansion pack)
    "Total War: Medieval II" (with Kingdoms expansion pack)
    "Total War: Napoleon"
     
  19. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Hollywood, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Nat'l Team:
    Ukraine
    There are two factors that weigh heavily on that, in my opinion:

    1. How soon does the war happen after the cessation of hostilities in Europe?
    USSR made good on the promise of entering the war against Japan and threw a lot of their best units into Manchuria, so Soviet military would not just continue rolling West.

    2. What are the possible aims of Soviet Union? The doctrine of "peaceful co-existence" was always strong (including Stalin's support), which is why USSR never invaded their neighbors in Europe in 1924-1938. So, if USSR decides on "expaning the Revolution" that would certainly be quite a departure from the official line. If the aims are local, USSR would not need to use a large force and allies might nnot have found it necessary to make a big issue out of it.
     
  20. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    I think just knowing that Americans had the bomb, regardless of their ability to mass produce, would have been a huge deterrent. The Soviets could have probably try to produce the bomb even faster if the war was actually taking place, but I would think until that happened, it would have been similar to what is happening with South and North Korea. Small skirmishes and some rattling.
     
  21. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Last night I had perhaps the weirdest conversation (among many weird ones) over dinner. My hosts actually claimed with deadfast seriousness, that Ukraine could have been better off under a Hitler lead Nazi Germany than it was under the Stalinist Soviet Union. I don't even think this face represents mine accurately enough. :eek:
     
  22. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    At that time, there were a lot of Ukrainians who welcomed Nazis with open arms.
     
  23. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah but this is 2011, and the Nazi's social plans for Slavs and Jews are there in plain sight for anybody who wants to see them.
     
  24. Drake44444

    Drake44444 Member

    Jul 5, 2008
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess that is indicative of the level of hatred for Stalin.

    Stalin's own wife shot herself in the throat because she couldn't take what he was doing to Ukraine.
     
  25. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    Oh, you mean with all of the info we have now, your friend still said that?
     

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