Club career Karl heinz Rummenige 294 goals+72 assists in 50711 minutes 0.65 goals+assists per 90 Arjen Robben 209 goals+164 assists in 42896 minutes 0.78 goals+assists per 90 International career Karl heinz Rummenige 45 goals+18 assists in 7658 minutes 0.74 goals+assists per 90 Arjen Robben 37 goals+ 30 assists in 7387 minutes 0.81 goals+assists per 90 Peak club Karl heinz Rummenige 1979/80(ballon dor winner) 36 goals+2 assists in 4196 minutes 0.81 goals+assists per 90 1980/81(ballon dor winner) 39 goals+2 assists in 3985 minutes 0.92 goals+assists per 90 Arjen Robben 2009/10(14th place ballon dor) 23 goals+8 assists 2739 minutes 1.01 goals+assists per 90 2014/15(22nd place ballon dor) 19 goals+9 assists in 2203 minutes 1.14 goals+assists per 90 League career Karl heinz Rummenige 221 goals+60 assists in 37010 minutes 0.68 goals+assists per 90 Arjen Robben 150 goals+122 assists in 29763 minutes 0.82 goals+assists per 90 European cup/champions league Karl heinz Rummenige 16 goals+2 assists in 2882 minutes 0.56 goals+assists per 90 Arjen Robben 31 goals+24 assists in 7511 minutes 0.66 goals+assists per 90 Robben was never the focal point/spearhead of his teams attack in the way KHR was sometimes being his teams 3rd or even 4th most important goal outlet(especially at Chelsea with Drogba the spearhead and frank lampard hogging all the set pieces) Despite this he outclasses him statistically prime for prime and over the course of his career Not only this he wins more collective titles and is awarded by kicker MVP the same amount of times In retrospect Arjen Robben(with his injuries) is at mimimum of the same level as KHR Without those injuries and in full flow he is a level above If Robben is statistically a slightly better player then technically he is vastly superior and i dont think anyone can (or has) disputed that reality. If @Trachta10 somehow manages to discover George bests goals/assists/minutes data i wouldn't be surprised in the least if Robbens peak compares favourably and we know in his best phases Robben was also a 4-5 dribbles per 90 player with a high level of involvement in his teams build up too For me he is one of the top 10-15 players i ever saw live or on match compilations His level is only matched or arguably surpassed by Franz beckenbaur/Gerd muller in bayern Munichs hall of fame https://theathletic.co.uk/1091331/2...test-exponent-of-this-new-style-of-wing-play/
I promise this isn't to try to make you feel silly about it (and also promise @PuckVanHeel that it isn't to take Rummenigge's side over Robben's!), but I think we need to be really careful not to use incomplete assist data, and so my question would be is it Transfermarkt that is being used for Rummenigge primarily, or even partially? Taking the 80/81 season, I think despite it being a German site, there just hasn't been an attempt to allocate assists in most of the games. For example, here no Bayern goals show assisters, in the opening two league games: Karlsruher SC - Bayern Munich, Aug 16, 1980 - Bundesliga - Match sheet | Transfermarkt Bayern Munich - Borussia Dortmund, Aug 19, 1980 - Bundesliga - Match sheet | Transfermarkt So it just depends how thoroughly the assists have been added for particular players and seasons in general. As an example, for 95/96 and AC Milan it is a pretty good source, and allocates assists for all of their league games IIRC, although for other Serie A teams not so much (not all of them at least, and it could be just the AC Milan games will show their assisters in some cases I think). It could be that for games with easily accessible goal footage the assists are shown but for other games not? For example Youtube clips, because Transfermakt does seem to allocate them in Bayern Munich games on Youtube for that 80/81 season I notice (there just aren't many of them though). However not in all cases. For example the EC game vs CSKA Sofia in 81/82: Bayern Munich - CSKA-Sofia, Apr 21, 1982 - European Champion Clubs' Cup - Match sheet | Transfermarkt 1982 April 21 Bayern Munich West Germany 4 CSKA Sofia Bulgaria 0 Champions Cup - YouTube
Another example where the available Youtube goals can help show an assist tally greater than what is on Transfermarkt: Karl-Heinz Rummenigge - Detailed stats | Transfermarkt Karl-Heinz Rummenigge - Detailed stats | Transfermarkt So that's 6 compared to 1 in that particular Serie A season, with just the AC Milan assist showing on Transfermarkt. Like I say, I'm not completely sure without trying to check what sources Carlito was using in the above post though. Probably for Robben it is pretty reliable in itself, but it's just problematic if players with full data for assists are compared to players without it in that way obviously (I guess Carlito did assume the data was complete, but I also guess it wasn't) so it's a general point rather than an argument about a specific comparison. EDIT: Going outside Serie A, even the 1985/86 UEFA Cup tie vs Real Madrid has the same issue (see second Transfermartkt link above - sorry I'd originally pasted that one in already instead of 84/85 but what I said does apply to the true 1984/85 page anyway). INTER 3-1 REAL MADRID 1985-1986 - YouTube
Well, like I said in my original post, I made this top using a mathematical method, and the results are KHR with 16,57 pts and Robben with 14,67 pts so it isn't a great difference. Althought individually i think that Robben (one of my fav players) is superior to KHR -especially in dribbling and creating chances- there are another points who put the German ahead of Arjen. Specifically, the rankings in my annual BdO are more favourable to KHR than Robben. The point of this top is evaluating every player in the same conditions and parameters so I expect that this explanation can be valid to you. __ In my opinion, Robben is the third greatest player of the Messi-Cristiano era competing with Ibra and below Xavi in terms of career. He could've been a top20-25 ever without injuries, no doubt. Sorry for my English and thanks for your point of view and info.
Transfermarket would have to be missing exactly 80 assists from Karl heinz Rummeniges catalogue for him to have a (roughly) comparable G+A per 90 ratio to Arjen Robben So even if 20,30,40 or 50 assists were uncovered hed still be off the mark After this there is technique and the application of it Record in finals/big games Collective titles In his(Rummeniges) greatest strengths ie scoring id say robben was comparable(slightly inferior maybe but not so much we could say they are in totally different leagues) Outside of scoring Robben was in his best phases dribbling on par with peak Lionel Messi The difference between the 2 IMO would be something like this
Difficult to say how many assists will be missing (in theory @Trachta10 could do an estimate from the complete or nearly complete seasons maybe, but as we see in the case of Di Stefano it won't always match reality or be very close to it), but there are it seems various examples of games going back into prior seasons where assists haven't been allocated - a couple shown below for examples: Bayern Munich - Hertha BSC, Jun 12, 1976 - Bundesliga - Match sheet | Transfermarkt Bayern Munich - Borussia Dortmund, Nov 24, 1979 - Bundesliga - Match sheet | Transfermarkt I think my main point is let's not denigrate the effectiveness of former players (whoever they are) by using incomplete data to compare them unfavourably to players with full data. My gripe is really that Transfermarkt, and other sources for things like even CL assists in the 1990s, don't make it explicitly clear and they seem to show assist tallies for particular players for particular seasons which are not going to be accurate or close to it necessarily. It'd be better I think if they somehow indicated when a tally is not fully verified. On the whole it's a useful resource and a nice website though to be fair on the other hand and much better than having nothing, but it's just that it can be misleading like this.
I think there are two Rummenigge assists in this European Cup game too as another quickly found example: 1981 March 18 Banik Ostrava Czechoslovakia 2 Bayern Munich West Germany 4 Champions Cup - YouTube FC Banik Ostrava - Bayern Munich, Mar 18, 1981 - European Champion Clubs' Cup - Match sheet | Transfermarkt Quite possibly European Cup, or European club competitions in general, could be done with the help of videos, as opposed to the Bundesliga and German cup games, although I wouldn't be quite sure if it 100% could without starting to do so. I did already post videos that show 3 European Cup assists in two games, and another assist in another game in the UEFA Cup though. I'm not suggesting of course that the rate would continue to be around 1 per game for all games Transfermarkt doesn't have the assisters noted for though, so yeah overall it's difficult to guess how close he'd be to another 80 assists overall I think.
Actually I think I quickly realise that I was wrong about the Banik Ostrava game assists, as number 10 is Durnberger I think isn't it, not Rummenigge, despite this page kind of suggesting otherwise (not explicitly but by order of players listed, but Rummenigge did tend to wear 11 I know) TJ Banik Ostrava - Bayern München 2:4 (Champions League 1980/1981, Quarter-finals) (worldfootball.net) However I could say the same instead about the other leg of the same tie lol (because transfermarkt do give assists for penalties won I believe): 1981 March 4 Bayern Munich West Germany 2 Banik Ostrava Czechoslovakia 0 Champions Cup - YouTube Bayern Munich - FC Banik Ostrava, Mar 4, 1981 - European Champion Clubs' Cup - Match sheet | Transfermarkt So to clarify it is only one assist to Rummenigge in the away leg, but by Transfermarkt's methods 3 in the tie overall (and maybe the square pass for the long shot is not in effect a better 'assist' than the neat play to win the penalty in the other leg, if we got into value judgements about it). EDIT - Maybe two in the tie overall as on a second check of both the first angle and the replay I think the defender and not Rummenigge might have headed it into the path of the scorer for the first goal....so finally in summary it seems like I've identified one Rummenigge assist per game in the 4 games I've posted from European competitions today (3 EC games and a UEFA Cup one).
No I am not annoyed about that or so (I think there are arguments either way depending on the criteria and I've given my own thoughts before, also with regards to playing well in the biggest matches/advanced stages and some other possible aspects). I have more issues with the nonsense of Maradona (to a lesser degree here Zidane) sitting whole tiers higher than Cruijff really, in particular from an 'measured influence * success/near-success' point of view, the registered shooting accuracy, and having a reliable actual return against the best teams over a prolonged period of time. Either way, my mind has also been switched off and relocated at the moment. Greetings.
Yeah, sure, I just wanted to make sure that my post wasn't an argument (with Carlito) about Rummenigge vs Robben (in effect in favour of the German, if I was saying he had more assists than shown), but more just a disclaimer on the stats (in general, not only for one player) when there are various games not showing assisters for the goals (and yet season totals shown on the main pages for the players, that without looking deeper can be seen as complete when they aren't). And I knew of course that your preference at least (not the same as a verdict) would be in Robben's favour between the two, naturally. But maybe it was an excuse to tag you indeed, as I knew that you had not been active on here much lately yeah - so I hope things are ok and 2021, 2022 etc go well for you. I guess/hope we all wish each other those kind of things in this Big Soccer community, but I know you liked to interact with me in the past and we got on well by PM often etc, so I think it's a good call to say it today maybe (hopefully without taking things too off topic lol). One seemingly severe under-rating of Johan I noticed recently on Youtube or somewhere was a rating for a version of the PES game (by the manufacturers I assume). I did think "this guy should be in the regions of Pele (perhaps, or at least close), Maradona etc" (and indeed not off topic for a candidate for "greatest footballer of all times" as per this thread's title)...and he wasn't really close on overall rating IIRC. I think I noticed on a page about PES ratings progressions for various players maybe and then again on a Youtube video still shot today (without then clicking on the video concerned to see exactly what it was about, but something seemed off as Scholes even seemed to have a rating one point higher than him too)!
If its on football ability alone, Maradona has a shout, if its on all round role model, personality etc Pele.
Hi, well is possible to discover George Best assists, I just need some free online newspaper library these are a good example but they are not free https://theguardian.newspapers.com/search/#query=manchester+united&dr_year=1960-1969 https://www.britishnewspaperarchive...d&retrievecountrycounts=false&sortorder=score Ogol has info for the minutes and goals https://www.ogol.com.br/player_results.php?id=14907&epoca_id=93&ps=0
Role model , personality has no meaning to this dicussion. But also , Football ability is hard to define and thats why we have the discussion. Most casual people falls for just aesthetic pleasures and don't even have an actual idea how to judge players properly or proper understanding of football. There are footballers who might be more aesthetically pleasing yet an inferior as an overall footballer. Thats why comparision needs to be done after understadning various of the game and taking all things into factor. And beside on the ball ability (which is also hard to define because many people just falls for one or a few aspects of the game which are more pleasing casually e.g dribbling or scoring for many) , things like off the ball movement, decision making, athleticism ,physicality etc should also be taken into account. It becomes an interesting discussion if we take everything into factor imo. Would like to see others views on the matter.
These things ,list and ratings are produced mostly by casual football fans or people who hasn't got much deeper insights into football history with their lazy narratives, i think . The types of people that has got no clue say - about pele's position(think he was a striker), maradona having a very poor team and winning everything singlehandedly, being only world class as a player like between 86-90, would place cristiano ronaldo among top 3 players ever, zidane among top 4/5 players ,best player of 98 wc, no general idea about footballing structure in past eras etc. Even i used to rate Cruyff as one of legendary players like Zico, best, platini etc but not among the absolute best players of the history. But after researching and digging a lot , seeing how high he was rated at the end of the century etc, and his overall footballing capability i started actually rating him properly (among best 4/5 players ever easily) and very close/same level as Pele and Maradona. Imo, his capability as a player has become underrated a lot because of his tactical genius being focused more among casual football fans and mainstream medias these days (who usually employ people who are mostly ignorant about football history in general, influenced by hypes these days and i myself have seen lot of them). And also most people are lazy and just don't want to build their narratives by actually digging into things themselves and thus continues living in delusions.
Yeah, I think there is truth in this. Being fair, it probably works both ways, depending on the particular area of interest/enthusiasm for individuals at certain times in their lives. I'm sure I'm overall more 'ignorant' about world football today (with current teams/players) than many younger fans, many journalists etc. Partly because I am not prepared to pay so much as necessary in TV subscription fees though obviously (especially now added 'competition' has the bizarre effect of making things more expensive for consumers if they did want to watch the maximum with more than one subscription to pay TV). At some point in the past though I'd have been more 'ignorant' about historical football myself, even if always interested potentially and with a certain amount of knowledge or experience of seeing the famous players of the past.
Overall career value (after 1955 only): 1. Pele 2. Messi 3. Cruyff 4. Maradona 5. Cristiano 6. Zidane 7. Beckenbauer 8. Ronaldo 9 9. Platini 10. Ronaldinho
Kinda agree the definition of football ability hard to define, 'something like the level at which ones is able to get things done'. I disagree that personality/ role model has no bearing. What you have mentioned above are technical, physical, psychological, 3 elements within a scouting system ,the fourth you missed out is Social. If you follow the guidelines set out in most countries scouting manuals you will always find an emphasis on social interaction, in Holland its part of 'TIC' in England its an element of the 'four corners' , so if your scouting or appraising a player it is as important a consideration as technique, insight etc. If a player decided they want to use their 'hand of god' to gain an advantage or if they are playing under the influence of an illegal banned substance then that speaks volumes. The best player in the world for me has to be amongst the best at every element. Just my humble opinion.
I remember I did think about what might be an All-Time XI in about 1990 give or take, just in my own head. That was the earliest I gave those kind of things any thought, but it was probably that I was basing things more off famous names than off footage I'd seen at that point. To the best of my recollection I came up with this, as an attacking/open 4-4-2 (in hindsight I'm not really sure it wouldn't be better to swap the positions of Puskas and Maradona if going with these players, even though in his early days Puskas did play as an inside forward from behind a WM centre forward I suppose - it's still not really the same as playing in midfield in a 4-4-2 though!): Gordon Banks; Carlos Alberto, Franz Beckenbauer, Franco Baresi, Paolo Maldini; Jairzinho, Michel Platini, Ferenc Puskas, Johan Cruyff; Pele, Diego Maradona If anything, if I try the same now I tend to put in Van Basten (curiously, as at the time I picked that team I'd probably seen more of him than of any player I included lol!) and go with a Christmas Tree with Pele and Maradona behind him but at the time I think I thought Pele and Maradona would both be considered forwards rather than midfielders (probably in a 4-4-2 that is true though, at least if no DM is included). The other thing I might now do is put Beckenbauer into the midfield (even though I think his libero version was him at his best, despite how he performed in the 1966 World Cup in midfield - he can be like a midfield libero though in the Christmas Tree!), so Bobby Moore (again curiously, because he was English, and I am too) is another player I would tend to put in. I'd definitely read about the Cruyff turn in some kind of 'soccer coaching for kids' book by then!
I saw this peculiar video lately, from 1984 at the public television, where he explains some things about goalkeepers (I think maybe they were not yet completely developed and fully integrated into the rest of his ideas). It's because of a few things interesting, not the least because his notion of a goalkeeper is also mentioned in the Zonal Marking book and such (with the phrase "Cruyff, possibly more than anyone in the history of football, had very particular and influential ideas about goalkeepers, which is somewhat curious considering Cruyff was not a goalkeeper himself"). At 16:08 he uses peculiarly an example of a Nottingham Forest vs Tottenham Hotspur game (and that 'Hans of Brooklyn' is doing this well). One of the teenagers sitting there is by the way Richard Witschge (another one is Marcel Keizer, later briefly manager of Ajax). It was not entirely random: they were the KNVB youth selection of the region. https://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/26-the-strange-case-of/2725-richard-witschge
Interesting to see. I guess he was talking about productive distribution of the ball by a goalkeeper to team-mates? That was an excellent accurate throw/pass by Van Breukelen actually indeed wasn't it! Re: Witschge I guess he was one of the closest ones to the female presenter (because I guess his hair would be even more blonde at that stage than later)? His case could be similar to Nicky Butt in the respect that I believe Alex Ferguson even at one point saw him as the pick of the youngsters coming through at Manchester United (rather than Beckham, Scholes etc). Maybe a personal perception, or maybe genuinely realistic to think so at the time (like with Witschge I suppose too, although obviously we spoke about young Bergkamp before and that Cruyff was a particular advocate of his inclusion and potential etc).
my top 50 1 pele 2 maradona 3 cruyff 4 messi 5 di stefano 6 puskas 7 beckenbauer 8 platini 9 cristiano 10 eusebio 11 zico 12 zidane 13 muller 14 garrincha 15 nazario 16 matthaus 17 charlton 18 best 19 yashin 20 kopa 21 van basten 22 gullit 23 baresi 24 meazza 25 rivera 26 didi 27 rummenigge 28 moreno 29 laudrup 30 luis suarez miramontes 31 maldini 32 passarella 33 figueroa 34 moore 35 sindelar 36 xavi 37 rijkaard 38 baggio 39 zizinho 40 sarosi 41 buffon 42 scirea 43 rivelino 44 kocsis 45 neeskens 46 romario 47 rivaldo 48 breitner 49 facchetti 50 ronaldinho
I'm just waiting for Haaland to appear top 50 or top 100 for the first time. Meanwhile I checked a few lists (among them the FourFourTwo one) of the last months to "photograph" the pre Haaland era. Top 50 would be something like this: 1 Messi 228 pts 2 Maradona 225 3 Pelé 222 4 Cristiano Ronaldo 220 5 Cruyff 212 6 Zidane 211 7 Beckenbauer 204 8 Ronaldo 195 9 Di Stéfano 188 10 Best 187 11 Puskás 184 12 Platini 177 13 G. Müller, Garrincha 176 15 Maldini 173 16 Zico 172 17 van Basten 171 18 B. Charlton 167 19 F. Baresi 166 20 Meazza 165 21 Ronaldinho 164 22 Romário 163 23 Eusébio 162 24 Carlos Alberto 152 25 Jashin 149 26 Sócrates 145 27 Kopa 143 28 V. Mazzola 142 29 Matthäus 140 30 Moore 137 31 Xavi, Matthews 135 33 Iniesta, Suárez (Spa) 131 35 Gento 129 36 Rossi 128 37 Sindelar, Netzer 125 39 Dalglish 121 40 Moreno, Hidegkuti 120 42 Buffon 116 43 M. Laudrup 115 44 Didi 112 45 R. Baggio 110 46 Rivelino 108 47 Blokhin 105 48 Rivera 104 49 N. Santos 103 50 F. Walter 102 N.B. that Zlatan is only #102, tied with Figo. Surely he would have been ranked much higher hadn't he been so thick...
Good to see Robben, who is too often overseen in these rankings! As I said before: Ibra is very tricky to rank. He's both a great goalscorer and a scorer of great goals, but... he hasn't scored one single WC goal, he strolled through the 2006 WC and his old habit of disappearing in big games never really left him. And did he or didn't he make his team mates better? Some rank him top 30 in the world, some don't even consider him. I'm Swedish and I have very split feelings about him, but somewhere around 50th/60th would be my ranking of him.