The Global Warming Thread

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by NickyViola, Nov 30, 2009.

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  1. scotch17

    scotch17 Member

    Jun 15, 2008
    Entebbe
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    On the other hand there is an equal and (in some ways) far scarier far-left cult that equally don't think: "The world is going to end!!", "Humans are all pathogens!!", "We have to save the oceans!!", "Whales are the citizens of the oceans!!"

    Just saying, it's a two-way road here and one only has to look at an organization like Sea Shepherd to see them at their nastiest.
     
  2. minerva

    minerva Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    I wouldn't call global warming big business.
    it's more appropriate to call it green business - and yes, it does generate a lot of money for those involved in it.
    BUTT, that doesn't mean that global warming is just a myth designed to generate revenue for some.
     
  3. Adiaga Two

    Adiaga Two Member+

    Oct 4, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    Yes, the left has a far share of hysterics, but last I checked the Democratic Party leadership is not made up of dreadlocked hippies wearing "Free Mumia" t-shirts. Meanwhile, the Republicans are led by John Boehner, who actually went on national television and said global warming is due to cow farts.

    And how is concern for the environment, however over-the-top, "scarier" than a group of people holding up Obama as Hitler signs who endorse the murder of abortion providers.
     
  4. scotch17

    scotch17 Member

    Jun 15, 2008
    Entebbe
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    Oh no doubt. I have no time for the current rendition of post-neocon pro-rape "you lie!" faux news Republicans.

    There is a difference between racism and people who think mankind itself is a pathogen that needs to be wiped out and feel righteous enough about it to pay money to go on a 4 month cruise to the middle of nowhere, throw toxic acid at people, ram ships, and state -- countless times -- how they are willing to die for some whales (that have never been endangered).

    They're just a skip, hop, and a jump from suicide bombers. And lord knows they've got plenty of the same mindless rhetoric.
     
  5. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    The Muslim suicide bombers get 72 virgins in paradise to screw. The folks you are talking about would go to 72 Purity Balls.
     
  6. Foosinho

    Foosinho New Member

    Jan 11, 1999
    New Albany, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    Those guys are about completely ineffective, and most likely to drown themselves out of sheer incompetence than anything else.

    Now, to keep this on topic...

    Why there's no sign of a climate conspiracy in hacked emails.
     
  7. Adiaga Two

    Adiaga Two Member+

    Oct 4, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    But I think you're massively overstating the prevalance and influence of these types of radicals. That's a tiny minority of the environmentalist community, probably the equivalent in size of the (openly) neo-fascist far right.

    If you look at the mainstream political discourse, the garbage spewed by the right over the last few decades is shocking and indeed very scary, especially considering they've able to win elections on it.
     
  8. scotch17

    scotch17 Member

    Jun 15, 2008
    Entebbe
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    They are useless, but that doesn't make them less crazy and they are re-escalating.
    They've sunk ships before using limpet mines, and their cult leader is wanted for something like 7 counts of attempted murder in Costa Rica.

    Despite their uselessness, that doesn't make them any less crazy.

    I didn't realize the openly neo-fascist far right had their own TV show with great ratings? I was under the impression openly neo-fascist far rights were treated extremely negatively in the media.

    Or that the media in several countries (US, UK, Australia) regularly reports these people's spin as-is with no fact checking?

    I'm not disagreeing with you on the right. It's why I've essentially ended up as a Democrat since 2004. I'm just pointing out they do not have a monopoly on the uneducated kool-aid drinking crazies.
     
  9. bit_pattern

    bit_pattern New Member

    Oct 30, 2009
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    If you want a profit motive then go and look at some of the names on the top 5 Fortune 500 companies. Here's a hint, there's no "green" companies on there and and at least one of them has a long history of paying money to subvert climate science - see if you can pick which one.

    http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2009/
     
  10. bit_pattern

    bit_pattern New Member

    Oct 30, 2009
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    Some of those "crap" methods weren't ever designed to go out for public consumption anyway, they were just playing with differen cenarios to see what would happen, people working with data code do it all the time. Here is a great example of what I am talking about.

    Nonsense. Here is Hansen's original 1988 model run against botht GISS and CRU.

    [​IMG]

    You can see the GISS scenarios incline just as steeply (cubic, rather than exponential, growth) as the scenario you linked to earlier (no doubt one of many) but, as I said earlier, GISS is probably the more accurate of the two because it takes into account Arctic temps, which CRU leave out because of the dearth of temp stations in the polar regions.
     
  11. minerva

    minerva Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    green technology hasn't been around long enough for any company in the industry to make it on the list of fortune 500.

    now if you want a real profit motive, you can look back to the post-WW II fear mongering that lead to the building of the military industrial complex. because enough nukes to destroy the planet 500 times over just isn't enough, if the Soviets can do it 501 times over.
     
  12. saosebastiao

    saosebastiao New Member

    May 22, 2005
    Re: Global Warming Raw Data Lost? Destroyed?

    Yeah, I've read excerpts of what you are talking about.

    Really though, I am not in the camp that thinks this invalidates AGW. But I do think that this establishes a reasonable amount of proof that the more extreme predictions (Like +15 C in 100 years) are just the product of some people's imaginations. I obviously haven't gathered up all the source data and recalculated their models after cutting out their manipulations, but I get the feeling that if it were to happen, we would be predicting around a one to two degree increase in global temperature over 100 years.
     
  13. bit_pattern

    bit_pattern New Member

    Oct 30, 2009
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    Yeah, I liked this quote of a similar nature:


    What the controversy really shows is a desire on all sides to maintain a myth about how science is conducted, says Daniel Sarewitz, co-director of Arizona State University's Consortium for Science, Policy, and Outcomes.
    "Both sides want to maintain this idea that science is this pure thing, this source of clarity, exactness, and truth. Of course, it isn't," he says. "It's a human endeavor, a social endeavor. The people who do it are people full of imperfections."
    None of that undercuts the weight of evidence on global warming, he adds.​
     
  14. Adiaga Two

    Adiaga Two Member+

    Oct 4, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    But the difference is that "green" technology is something we actually need for the general good of mankind. The military-industrial complex is a whole sector of the economy based on building bigger, better, and more profitable people-killing machines.
     
  15. Foosinho

    Foosinho New Member

    Jan 11, 1999
    New Albany, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    OMG. Read this. Read it now. The guy who picked out bits of code actually was stripping away relevant context, and he's flipping crazy to boot:

    Most of the environmental movement is composed of innocent Gaianists, but not all of it. There's a hard core that's sort of a zombie remnant of Soviet psyops. Their goals are political: trash capitalism, resurrect socialism from the dustbin of history. They're actually more like what I have elsewhere called a prospiracy, having lost their proper conspiratorial armature when KGB Department V folded up in 1992. There aren't a lot of them, but they're very, very good at co-opting others and they drive the Gaianists like sheep.​
     
  16. bit_pattern

    bit_pattern New Member

    Oct 30, 2009
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    Assuming for a moment you are correct, and that explains why scientists have been carefully cooking the books over the last 50 years to create a whole new field of scientific research, wasn't that post-war period rather good for the American economy? Wouldn't an industrial overhaul of that magnitude be just what the doctor ordered for Americas economic well being right at the moment? I mean, I think the proposal is about as loopy as i gets myself, but the idea of mobilising in the way that the country did in that era - and for nothing nearly as insidious as a nuclear industry (green energy is pretty damned benign) I'm at a loss to see why you would think it a bad thing?
     
  17. Barbara

    Barbara BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 29, 2000
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    Well, during the Cold War there was a good argument to be made that building a bunch of nuclear weapons was something we needed for the good of mankind. Not that this has much to do with the topic at hand.
     
  18. bit_pattern

    bit_pattern New Member

    Oct 30, 2009
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    Tim Lambert's blog is excellent for cutting through the hype and fluff, especially when it comes to coding, which is his profession, the comments are worth following too as he attracts a pretty switched on readership.
     
  19. minerva

    minerva Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    woah! I never said scientists have been cooking the books on climate change to support some kind of consipracy!

    all I am saying is that even if there is a green business, and even if green business becomes big business, that doesn't mean that the basic science behind global warming is wrong. sure, once you introduce money into any situation, there will be some opportunities of mismanagement and corruption, but that's true of any situation where money is involved - and the more money, the more opportunity. all you can do is to carefully monitor/regulate the industry.
     
  20. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    I am withholding judgment until i get the official word from Fox
     
  21. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    I am late to the thread - is this about the phony smoking / cancer link?






    :D
     
  22. minerva

    minerva Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    I don't know about the cancer part, but you do know that it has yet to be definitively proven that nicotine is adictive - just ask Bob Dole.
     
  23. scotch17

    scotch17 Member

    Jun 15, 2008
    Entebbe
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    I don't think the science is in on that yet.
     
  24. Steamer

    Steamer New Member

    Jan 30, 2006
  25. prk166

    prk166 BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 8, 2000
    Med City
    Re: Climategate: it's all unravelling now

    Who exactly are these deniers? I've seen that net cast wider and wider over the last couple of years. From what I seen the label "denier" has come to be applied to most anyone who questions not AGW, most folks labeled "denier" don't question AGW, but that have issues with a lot of specific hypothesis floating out there in the AGW-world such as that we'll have more frequent and more violent hurricanes.

    While I"m sure there are some, I've never seen anyone attack science. They've question certain aspects. Sometimes it's not reasonable but the majority that I've seen has been quite reasonable.

    And we should all keep in mind the science on evolution is far from "settled". Sure, we know there's some sort of evolution but the exact process and such is still not 100% known. Climate science is incredibly immature. It's only been around for a few decades. We hardly know any details with certainty. It should be expected that there will be a lot of debate over how certain details actually work.
     

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