The Foreign Thing

LDB, nothing personal, but how long do you plan to go on peddling this lie? Check the Academic All American rolls and see about 30% of those teams being foreign-born. For every Emmanuel Ayim or Dipsy Selolwane, who checks in and out of a program, I'll match you with an Attila Vendegh, Ilkka Jantti, Danny Jackson etc. The reason many of these players come here is precisely because of the education.

Unless you have some evidence to back this up, I think you ought to try and let your argument stand on its own merit, rather than making sweeping alarmist falsehoods. You previously stated that internationals rarely ever stay for four years. Do you want to retract that, or should I supply you with a list of foreign seniors?

 

gotta luv LuvdaBears

Luv, you are right on about what you are trying to say and I like your passion in supporting the American player. I understand what you are saying, have seen evidence over the years. Even saw it when the USISL was formed and hasbeen bums came over for the sake of "professional" soccer.

Here's the kicker, though. My son is on a college team with four foreigners, all from New Zealand. If you look up the team, Greensboro College, you will see a fifth, from Canada, but he has lived in the US since his Junior year in HS. In this case, all these players are serious about their classwork. A fifth from New Zealand graduated last year in 4 years.

What it adds to the college experience. Right now one of the players is at my house because he couldn't make the trip home. Over the four years we have shared Thanksgiving and Christmas with different players. It has been a joy for my son and our family. My son spent last summer in New Zealand as guest of one of the families. I feel my son's education was greatly broadened by his experience with the foreign players. On the soccer field he had "mates" that shared the same passion for the game as he. The real catch to all of this is getting the right player. Our Kiwis raise the level of play at practice and games. They are much more professional in their attitude than the average American player. They also appreciate the college education. So there is a good side.

You are right about the age thing. Most foreigners are 20-21 when they come over. Different countries vary, but they normally are older. I know 1 NAIA coach that has told a potential recruit he is bringing in 3 players from Trinidad with four years each playing professionally. These guys will be in the 22-23 range, as freshman. I think of where my son might stack up now if he where going in as a 21 year old freshman instead of a senior. We have had good experiences at GC, but I can assure you, a coach buying a "smoking gun" that comes in one year, is looking for trouble. I have watched various mid D1's try it with very little success, and as you have so correctly pointed out, at the expense of some good American players.

 

Foreigners shouldn't be allowed unless they have a green card IMHO.

 

What planet do you live on dude? The European Union has strict rules and limitations for non-EU players, with the UK having the most restricted of them all.

I'm not sure why we're arguing this, the NCAA has its head up its ass about college soccer anyways. They surely don't give a damn about too many foreigners when they allow timeouts and liberal substitutions.

 

Look LDB, I understand why, as a parent, this bothers you, and although I don't agree with you that something should be done about it, I am empathetic. There was some good discussion about this topic previously, and I don't think your point of view requires the generalization that you are making.

Of course, you don't have to prove it to me, but I reserve the right to find your conclusion totally off the mark until you do, because it anecdotally appears to be completely wrong. You don't need to spend 12 months researching this, but I'd bet in one hour I could make a list of over 50 D1 intl players who have completed 3 or 4 years in their programs (and you did say that Danny Jackson was a rare exception who stayed 4 years). I have no idea what kinds of students they all are, but I don't know that about any player - foreign or american. But they are staying academically eligible, and the number of foreign kids who are true acadmeic standouts is enough evidence for me to believe that they are generally just as studious as their American counterparts.

I liken it to me saying that teams should only sign foreigners because all American players are malcontents and drug users - I can cite a pretty decent number of cases of kids being kicked off teams, but you'd probably find that to be an outlandish and unfair generalization. You probably couldn't prove I was wrong though. I think when you are making such a claim, you ought to have some basis - or perhaps temper it closer to the truth (some foreign kids take advantage).

Notice that I am not challenging your view that there are American kids who are as good, or better, than foreign players. I have no idea if that is true, but it at least seems possible, and highly subjective besides. The gross generalization about shady motives simply doesn't pass the believeability test with me, and I think your hyperbole damages an otherwise reasonable argument.

 

I hate to take this thread back to Title IX (which I support for the most part), but as long as the D1 teams have limited roster spots the coaches are going to go to europe, south america, etc. looking for quick fixes. They would rather bring in 20-21 year old foreign freshmen than work a couple of years developing their 18 year old American freshmen. I'm afraid that many of our college coaches don't have the capacity to "develop" their own talent. Without the roster limits they might be more inclined to keep some extra players around to see how they develop. That's the rub--18 year old American players are competing with 20-21 year old former professionals. The playing field is anything but level for aspiring Americans.

What I don't get is that almost none of these coaches are under much pressure to win. Very few athletic departments (even at the best soccer schools) pay much attention to soccer. So why the over-emphasis on the quick fix? My son's team has five foreigners. They are all good students, and some of the more serious players on the team. So, I have no problems with *some* foreign players, but I think a foreign cap makes some sense. Let's make the lazy coaches earn their salaries (most of which are paid by the taxpayers).

 

My computer freezing saved you all from a much more rambling post. To sum what I tried to say:

(1) It is true that many AD's don't pay much attention to soccer, but what attention they do pay is to win/loss records and any awards the coach or players receive. A coach with a weak team may feel pressure to go for the quick fix.

(2) I don't like it when any athlete--foreign or American--takes a scholarship and then bails out without meeting his/her academic and athletic responsibilities. (My anecdote, shortened from my crashed post: When I was in college, a basketball player left school right after the end of the season. His books for that semester were still shrink-wrapped.)

(3) Some non-American players may just be better for certain roles. For instance, Del Monte, the Creighton senior from Brazil, was the best on the team attacking on the dribble.

(4) [relates somewhat to 3]: Some non-Americans may not be better than Americans, when compared as individual players. However, they may bring different styles or skills that improve the other players on the team.

(5) The exposure to other cultures and experiences may be extremely beneficial off the field to the development of the student-athletes on the team. For instance, the story of Kama Bennah's flight from Liberia's civil war that led him to US was cited by Creighton coach Bob Warming as an inspiration from the Bluejays' success.

(6) There are different categories of "foreign" players, and it may be helpful to differentiate v. lump them all together. Five possible groups: (1) those who come to US as adults to attend college and play soccer (inc. those looking only to play soccer as well as those using soccer to get an education); (2) those who come to US as adults for non-college/soccer reasons (inc. refugees); (3) those who come to US in high school, etc., but who learned most of their soccer elsewhere; (4) those who come to US early in life and learn most of their soccer in the US; and (5) US citizens raised overseas who come home to college (inc. children of missionaries, businessmen, diplomats, military, etc.). [While the fifth group are Americans, they may have less in common with teammates than #3 and #4; and parents may not have paid much in the way of taxes, which some of you have mentioned as significant.]

Now, just imagine how long my post was that crashed. Sorry so long-winded.

 

this is a very absurd topic, generally I think if someone is good enoug then they should be able to play,I am a youth coach and the first thing I would say is that this guyz that come in would usually expose our kids.1. our kids dont watch soccer but still want to play it, 2.)they dont really understand what a goal means, they just score most of the times and hold their arms high for a second.when I train kids I kind of tell them that when they score a goal they need to celebrate and enjoy the goal, reason why I tell them this is so they cannot conceed goals. 3.The main thing here is that there lacks an intense soccer culture in the US and the only way that you are going to have our kids have the same passion as a Gabriel Batistuta(I still remember his goal against barcelona at the nou camp).4. have them exposed to this mentality by the foreign kids that come to our colleges. For gods sake kids in the US dont even have an idea of what flopping is, as bad as it might seem thats how I judge how soccer is competitive in an area, its a cut throat business and we need to have our kids realize this or we cannot compete

 

Let me tell you about this. A friend of my son's went to school at Rollins college this Fall to play soccer, and the roster was FILLED with foreign players. Well, everyday, some sort of fight broke out in training because many of these foreigners couldn't get along....in the first week of preseason, two guys got into a knock down drag out fist fight. Yeah, I'd say we can learn a lot from those guys.

And by the way, if this is such an absurd topic Saukrates, why did you bother to post?




I heard of 4 americans kids getting into a fight in a college practice in a team filled with americans kids.

LDB, can we say that fighting in a practice is something that happens now and then regardless of the origin of the players.

By the way I think that Emile and Dolphins coach have very good point about "the foreign thing".

 

I agree that many American youth soccer players don't have a clue about soccer. Nor do the coaches, nor do some of the people in power. I don't think that foreign players helps out much in this regard. I think that COACHES need to be the most educated, since they are the ones who tend to teach our children their base skills. I will agree though that it's absolutely stupid how some kids don't watch soccer on TV when that is their primary sport. That is just unbelievable.

Saukrates, I'd say your experiences have been a little skewed since you coach in Dallas, TX. In Virginia and California the players are much, much more immersed in soccer culture. But I will agree that youth soccer culture in general needs to improve. However, that happens before a player is college aged. The college game is very weak at developing professional players, and if a player isn't immersed in soccer culture by college age it's already too late.

 

I think a foreign national should be allowed the same rights to prosperity if they have a student visa. Title 9 is the driving force behind the conversation since we wouldn't have a limit on scholarships w/o the act.
For the record, I adamantly support it's enforcement since I firmly believe our society benefits when women have equal rights in their persuit of acedemic, financial & athletic achievement. In a christmas dinner conversation w/ a disgruntled college rugby player, I pointed out that the AD has the ultimate say so in whom shall rcv either a partial or full ride scholarship. If the AD thinks his/her college coach is giving away state & federal money to a merc that'll leave @ the 1st chance, then it is the responisibility of the AD, not the conferences or the NCAA, to determine the future of the individual program.
I can understand the position of Luvdacrappypointyballteam but Emile's assessment that in many cases, soccer is a means to an end. They want to get an american education & their diversity enriches the student body. There are around 115 D1 schools here. If xyzU wants 3mercs or more, go to their rival.

 

[sarcasm]

Yeah the last thing we want is to take away all those scholarships from those Americans who deserve them. In fact we should prevent them from getting graduate TA's and RA's. We sure don't need more foreign graduate students. What taxes have they paid? They're getting something that they didn't earn. Much better that we give those scholarships and other tax payer money to the people that earned it! Why should I have to pay taxes to have a foreigner take it?

[/sarcasm]

Sorry folks but the best lesson our players can learn is that if you want to be good at soccer you have to put forth the hard work and be better than everyone else competing for the reward. That's how excellence was built in the rest of the country and you should have to put up with that too. It' makes better people of you. I do think the NCAA should treat foreign players the same from an amateur standpoint but as far as "taking away" something? Oh pUlease!

 

Hey AM, every public university has a cap on foreign graduate (and undergraduate) enrollment, and they also place caps on out-of-state domestic enrollment. This is most definitely a taxpayer issue. Are qualified undergraduate students being denied admission to their state schools to accomodate qualified foreign applicants? Yes, but only up to a point. That's the same argument being advanced in this thread--that there should be a cap on foreign players on rosters.

 

Should we apply the same % cap of "out-of-state domestic enrollment" to the soccer team? Say if the legislature has limited the state university to no more than 50% out of state students then the soccer team should have no more than 50% out of state players on scholarship? Should they have the same percent start too? No I don't think anyone would go for that.

No matter how you slice it you are asking for some kind of handout for domestic players. I would rather that they earn their starting position and their scholarships. It's the American way.

 

I don't support Title IX, I believe it gives women spots in a disproportionate number when compared with their percentage of participation.

I agree there should be a cap on foreign players, and a foreigner who washed out of X clubs professional youth system should not be allowed to play if AN AMERICAN YOUTH PLAYER IS INELIGIBLE BECAUSE OF THE SAME THING. That is hypocrisy of the highest degree.

 

This is the PERENNIAL PROBLEM OF SOCCER USA" and the soccer community just fell in to the hand or soccer haters in this country, even though they have LANDON DONOVAN ACROSS THEIR THROATS (lucky us) . every contry on the planet put a limit on foreing players per team, we are the only DUMBONES . Somethigh have to change THIS AIN'T RIGH

 

to luvdabears, the reason why I said that this topic is so absurd is 1. as a country college soccer will never get us on par with other countries as far as development of soccer players, so having a limit on players on age or nationality might not be a good thing, when a few of this foreign kids come here they have already been exposed to international football,college football like all instutional soccer throught the world always concetrates on the athleticism aspect of the world not on the technicalities of the game, to your 2nd question, our kids are as passionate as any other but do they really understand what a goal really is not really, because they always think that they will score one,when someone has scored against them. I have had to explain to my kids that its as important to always protect that 1 goal lead, but because teams score and dont rub it in on their faces, they always tend to loose that fact,rembember the great Brian CLOUGH said great teams always win 1-0. I have always felt that our dependence on college soccer is not good for the improvement of our game as by the time a top kid in the soccer playing world gets to college going age he already has the professional mentallity, they have learned ways to protect themselves like 1.always have the ankles bandaged up or strapped up firmly before they take to the field, anyway my thing is that we should put college soccer where it belongs and that is we need development soccer centres throught the country, if you are aware of the french soccer academy at clairemfortaine and how they go about there business you will realize that we are so far much behind that is why we compare kids like letellac and that Ponglle(not yet 18 year olds ) to people like Landon,(if you watched the U17 when we played them you realise only EJ would have made it to there team,I dont even want to mention that Mexes kid who is now considered an accomplished defender that we are really in for it.I just feel college soccer should not be emphasised the way it is even though its the only thing we have, we should pressure the ussf for development centres probably in conjuction with the colleges.

 

I feel like the French academy is first rate also, so are the Dutch ones at Feyenoord, Ajax, and PSV, ManU, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Barcelona etc.

France IMHO is risking overtraining of their youth since they start their players so early off in the academy system. This leads to robotic players with good skills IMHO. Thus, you have their over- dependence on one player---Zidane. Without him in the centre you saw what happened to France. 15 is the earliest that I would start fast tracking players, and even then you're not going to be sure of who's going to turn out at the top because of physical and emotional maturity.

This has little to do with college soccer because we're now seeing players staying for a maximum of three years. The cream is starting to get siphoned off at the sophomore level and US kids are starting to realize the benefits of becoming professionals at younger ages.

Before bigsoccer's crash I pointed out that the overwhelming trend on the U23 team was to be professional, and on next year's U20 team you're going to see even more professionals. Beyond that, the realization that you don't have to be on the youth national teams to actually have a good professional career will be starting to set in on our youth, which should enlarge the professional pool even more.

By 2006 and beyond, barring something disastrous or a major change in NCAA rules, college soccer will only produce a small number of players who actually end up staying for four years.

I still believe that there should be a cap on foreigners, and that it's completely unjust for a foreign youth washout to come and play while an American kid will be ruled ineligible for having been affiliated with a pro club. Div II changed their rules regarding this, perhaps Div I should get with the program.

 

to the wanderer although this is not about the french academy, i just wanted to point out that the
french came up with the most innovative idea of not trying to come up with clones and that is its one of the few training programs that does not teach game tactics to it's trainees till they are almost 17, they focus mainly on skill, the only thing that I can say that seems to be evident with most of the players is the amazing balance on the ball even when in tight situations from young alliadere to anelka,in any case U think we should focus on the under 17's

 

Age limits on scholastic recipients would violate the Americans With Disabilies Act which was upheld by the US supreme Ct reguarding the elderly earlier this yr. Plus, you have a precedent w/ the NCAA/NBA and the right to work hardship rulings which opened the NCAA to allowing freshmen on the basketball court & underclassmen to declare eligible for the NBA draft.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 guarantees that green card holders have equal protection under the law as a natural born citizens. I'm not sure if this extends to holders of student visas but for the sake of diversity at our public institutions, I think it should.

 

Re: Re: LuvDaBears is Right

 

A simple limit on foreing students

Is simple logic, every country have a limit on foreing players but USA.....And about NCAA doing something about it ....forget It !! Comon sense is not abundant on COLLEGE LAND...NCAA soccer have the potential to big a HUGE MONEYMAKER but they choose to row on the droll

 

"
Can you guys see my point? This is a state school that is not fully funded, and this coach is bringing in hired guns from Europe to play one season. [/B][/QUOTE] I still do not know how could you call this guy a coach....Anybody can go europe, bring few top guns and look good, a REAL coach will train, polish and prepare a team....just like Bruce Arena....Please lets talk about some real coaches