The Foreign Thing

There was a foreigner on the team one time at UVa but I don't think he ever made it onto the field and I think this was under Gelnovatch. I forget his name but he was always injured I think. Still, I don't even know if he was on scholarship or not.

But that is something I always admired about Arena: that he wouldn't go the foreign route, unlike Coastal Carolina.....err....Iceland.... from the 80s.

Still, should we deny someone the right to earn a great education who otherwise might not be able to?

 

A large portion of those ancient foreign players (such as the common expats from Scandinavia and Israel) are older because they served a few compulsory years in their nation's military. I do believe that they all are actually amateurs.

As to whether or not they should be taking American college scholarships, I think it's a 'market economy'. As you suggest, there are loads of problems with having a side dominated by foreign students, such as unfamiliarity of the American style and a lack of cohesion between international teammates. The best teams in the country use predominantly American players. Once the talent pool improves so that mid-tier teams can have full teams of good American players, I think they will do so. In the meantime, its not bad practice for some of the young American players to get practice against more mature international players - although I can understand why a parent of a high school player might be chagrined.

Check the All-Conference lists - several smaller conferences are still pretty dominated by foreign players, not to mention the massive domination at the NAIA and D2 levels.

 

LuvDaBears is Right

American Colleges
American Education
American Money
American Scholarships
American Soccer

Foreign Nationals (FNs) should be limited in their participation especially at State schools. In my opinion no more than three FNs per squad at any one time. If the privates want more then they can go ahead because theyare funded/endowed differently but State schools should have a FN cap.

Or, perhaps, no scholarships for FNs in their first year, then scholarship eligible still having a limit of FNs at anyone time. Let's see how bad FNs really want an American education when they have to prove themselves and pay for at least one year.

You want to develop American Soccer then let the FNs go elsewhere and give the dollars to a worthy American player; there are plenty out there.

 

Re: LuvDaBears is Right

Where does it say in a coach's contract with a college that he has to develop American soccer?

Look at it another way. These coaches are coaching for their livelihood. If he feels bringing foreign players in who are better than what he's got is able to recruit domestically then he's going to do it...his job could be on the line.

 

You assume that colleges and universities have a mission to help US soccer, which they most certainly do not.

I also think it is unfair to stereotype all of these foreign players as 'mercenaries'. Some of them are clearly not serious college students, but many of them are fantastic academic achievers who have leveraged their soccer skill to get a superior university education here in the States. I think that many of them have come over here precisely because they don't want to scrape out a living as a mediocre soccer player, but aspire to do something else. These players are in line with the overall goals of a university - high academic achievement and adding diversity to the student body.

I hope, and think, that the numbers of foreign players will diminish over time, but I don't think I'd support any forced legislation to make it happen sooner (and the NCAA certainly wont act anyway, unless the 'problem' gains notoriety in men's basketball). In the meantime, you could always withhold that big Athletic Department endowment you were going to give to Winthrop.

 

Emile makes an incredibly valid point about the age discrepancy between foreign players and Americans. A lot of them have to serve time in the military and are thus older when they begin their university careers. And they are amateurs according to NCAA rules, they have not been paid to play soccer. They might come up with youth teams, but so do many American kids.

I kind of think the rationale against foreigners here is a bit ridiculous. Are any of you annoyed by the amount of foreign students who inundate campuses academically? They also take away scholarships/fellowships from Americans. Any program, whether it's academic or athletic, is going to accept the best people available. Soccer is hardly an isolated incident, nor is a soccer program's approach to recruiting any different than any other program, whether it's an engineering department or track team.

In soccer terms, consider how recruiting might further factor into some school's decisions to pursue a foreigner. Rather than recruit against a Virginia or Indiana with your incredibly sparse soccer funds, some schools look for diamonds in the rough. Overseas offers such an opportunity. These programs want to win, and they need to be creative to do so. And why recruit a hot-shot American when they're probably going to bolt as soon as a MLS PRO-40 contract comes around or a European pro teams comes calling? At least the foreign players are more likely to stay four years.

Also, what about the thousands of "student-athletes" who take away slots for many academic students even though their only interest is playing sports? Why not cry about this foul? Many of these foreigners are simply using soccer as an excuse to get an education, can the same be said of some American soccer players? Yes and no. I know for a fact that some of these foreign players would have stopped playing soccer but college ball offered them a means to give themselves a better life academically. Mercenaries? Not exactly, many are interested in the education and getting out of their countries to a place that offers upward mobility.

And one last point. How many college soccer teams are there? Hundreds? There is plenty of teams out there for the deserving American. Share the wealth, at least that's my opinion.

 

Excellent point.

Another excellent point. Unless a school is doing what Hartwick was alleged to have done in the 70s/80s (bring in 28 year-old English guys with full-time and part-time professional experience), there's nothing wrong with it.

If someone is really concerned with things like this, they should worry about graduate teaching assistantships that are given to foreign students who can't speak English very well, but who are still allowed to teach. THAT's a problem faced (or really, ignored) by some universities. And it has more damaging consequences for both the TA's and undergraduates.

 

LuvDaBears is totally, undeniably, right

This is real simple.

"LuvDaBears" and "Ocre" are right. Everyone who disagrees with them on this is wrong.

Waste all the time you want fabricating a justification -- you'll still be wrong. And really, is that how you want to spend your time?

 

If a couple of you want to change the case to discuss foriegn students in general, or immigration policy or whatever, great. Those areas need closer scrutiny, IMO, and I'd be happy to pitch in my two ceants. (Particularly about Medical students admitted from third world countries out of compassion and a desire to improve health care in impoverished countries only to see 80% or more of them open up dermatology clinics in American strip malls because it pays better)

But this particular thread is about foreign soccer players filling up the rosters at American Universities.

And in that regard, there certainly ought to be some limits on just how many "ringers" from overseas you can put on your roster. It makes no sense, particularly with Title IX forcing Colleges to cut athletic opportunities for men in general, for publically funded Universites expending limited athletic resources on Swedish 24 year olds.

It is quite simply unjustifiable.

But as noted, the problem is of course that coaches are under pressure to produce a winner. Now.

I personally know a coach who just took over an abysmally bad college program. He has very little chance of turning this traditionally awful program around in the short term, having no upper class talent to speak of and starting a recruiting effort ftom ground zero trying to sell a program that's never won anything.

So he has already arranged for a number of players from overseas to come in next year. It's an instant fix, a jump start which will help him gain some respect for his program and some time in which to build a team.

It's his career. He has a wife and three kids, man. I can't tell him he's wrong.

But if the NCAA refused to let him, and others in the same boat, resort to stacking the deck, I think everyone would be a lot better off. He'd be forced to do it the old fashioned way.

 

I dont think it is a big deal how many foreign players are on a team. Coaches are gonna take the better players simple as that. I would want a winning team, its not all about american pride here. Its some peoples jobs were talkin...

 

International Players

To Whom May It Concern,

I am quite impressed with the amount of garbage we can read in this post. Whoever started this thread must be extremely upset over an international soccer player, however, you can not let some personal pride get in the way and criticize those international players who are actually here to achieve their goal. By the way, are you the coach of XYZ College that you mentioned earlier?

So, instead of looking at the bad seeds that come from abroad why don't you focus on the goods they bring to American soccer? Or we can focus on some of the American kids who are granted a full athletic scholarship and fail out, drop out, or does not have any discipline to obbey by the team's rules.

My point here is that there will be a bad example if you look for, and if you choose to use those bad examples to set a standard or stereotype international studen-athletes go right ahead. But, then you will be approaching this issue in a "Bush" like manner by only presenting the facts that best suit your argument.

With all this said, lets just enjoy the flare, passion, skill, and experience that many of the international student-athletes brings to the game of soccer ....

Have a good night ....

 

ACC

If you look in our own back yard, Luvda, it is interesting to note that the ACC team with the most foreign nationals is the only one not going to the tournament.
The other thing to note is that alot of American kids who know that don't have what is required to go pro don't want a last hurrah. They would rather focus that energy and time to school and social life.

 

I do see your point. But the scenario you describe sounds remarkable similar to countless American athletes on scholarship as well. I'd be really surprised if this school gave out wasted athletic scholarships only to foreign players, so I don't see how this guy is any worse than, say, a basketball player who attends classes as little as possible and has a tutor do most of his work. Both are taking money away from more deserving people.

You're right that it's a problem, but foreign athletes are certainly not the only causes of the problem.

 

please

ncguy>> No one is talking about college kids who don't want to play. LuvDaBears is not saying that the average college student who wants to focus on school and social life should be presented with a spot on the soccer team before any foreigner who wants to play.

We're talking about American soccer players who WANT to play, and don't get the opportunity--in some cases because if they don't have ODP experience or Regional or national team credentials, they become thought of as third-class players (after Americans with nice resumes and foreign nationals who hail from solid footballing nations).

Sorry--I don't mean to put words in LuvDaBear's mouth. He may not be on exactly the same page as what I've written. My point was that we're obviously talking about players who may or may not have illusions about going pro, but who DO want to play at the D-1 level (which, you can be assured, is a far cry from the professional ranks of the world...)

King Eric

 

I can understand it at the Div I level because there the cusp player still feels they might have a shot. But in the ACC the average is not quite three Foreign nationals per roster. Somebody posted earlier that the foreign problem seemed to be more prevalent in Div II and III and I think that stems from the lack of players willing to make that kind of committment knowing their soccer days are over.

 

come on guys

college soccer has so much parity due to this. Virginia has had the luxury of having the youth Nat team to get players from. The bigger schools have a monopoly on the better american guys. Better American players just wont go to smaller schools so why not go overseas. Would you prefer the overseas leagues had the same mentality about American players playing in them? If so how would claudio and those guys get an opportunity to develop into the players they are? Also many of the college coaches themselves are foreign.
Some of the best players in college soccer are foriegn and this makes for better competition. The central mid from Maryland and the left back from VCU are foreign and are the 2 best players i have seen play this season. HOw the VCU guy was not all american is amazing to me. VCU have many foreigners and play the best style I have seen this year. Its all good for college soccer !

 

I agree with you soccerball, foreign players are good for the college game.

Also having a few foreign players in your team make the college experience a lot more interesting. I played with 2 guy from Tunisia, 2 from France, 1 from Belgium and 2 from Cameroun when I played in College. During 3 hours bus trip I was sitting most of the time with one of those guy, learning from another culture.

I don't see how you can blame a coach for having a few foreign players on his team, maybe he's looking for diversity instead of having 18 players from the same state.

 

Re: ACC

I happen to know of a whole team of college players who play not for a future pro career but for their intense love of the game. They focus their energy on soccer and school--and have little time for anything else.

 

I don't mind the occassional foreign player on a team, like how Creighton, Stanford and Maryland (5 foreign starters between them) have at the Final Four.

I agree that good foreign players raise the level of play for the college game, and that's a good thing.

I also understand that when programs aren't in the elite tier that they can't always get the top Americans, who won't go there because they aren't top tier, so they get international players to get them to that top tier.

My problem is certain top programs - like UConn, for instance - that rely heavily on foreign players when they could just as easily get a top Americans.

I mean, if UConn can get Chris Gbandi and Adam Schuerman then there's no reason why they have to start 7 foreign players. That, I have a real problem with.

 

UCONN

Well its an interesting subject to say the least ! I really think that UCONN plays a great brand of soccer. The best American soccer players these days are going to MLS. Eddie Gavin is probably the top pprospect out there and I hear he is going to MLS. Not good for college socer, but great for US Soccer and great for Eddie Gavin.
Its easy to understand both sides of the arguement. Mid tier programs have to get foreign guys to keep up with top tier programs. I am not sure what program you are talking about with european guys leaving mid-semester, but that up to the coach to make his selection on foreign guys just like he does Americans.
i disagree about Americans having a hard time getting opportunities overseas. Since john harkes and a couple of guys opened the doors its a lot easier. Before him it was virtually impossible. i would like to talk more about college coaches taking the easy way out and playing long ball crap rather than talking about foreigners. UCONN may have foreigners but they play a great brand of soccer that is nothing but good for the game. Too many coaches take the easy way out and rather then develop players they just rely on athleticism and play long ball garbage socer. Too many subs and too much emphasis on results. Coaches have to spend more time on developing good soccer players.

 

If American soccer players dont want europeans or foreigners taking away scholarship money for soccer they should step up there game. What if foreign leagues in Europe said they were not going to sign American players and develop only their own or decided to limit the number of foreign players many americans like keller, reyna, freidel, would not be at the level they are at now.

The result of fewer americans plying their trade overseas is yeah a better mls, but a weaker national squad and less skill and development of the players on the national team.

Just like American kids dream of playing football for big clubs overseas, foreign kids dream of going to an American school and playing football at the same time on scholarship.