The Flint water supply

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Kazuma, Jan 12, 2016.

  1. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Can someone tell me why a whole bunch of government functionaries do not share the blame? I mean, Snyder, being head honcho, probably should tie cinder blocks to his feet and wade into the Flint River, but a whole bunch of people managed to ******** this up - technically over decades - and the decision to switch supplies itself was not exactly solely Snyder's.

    http://reason.com/blog/2016/01/21/the-government-poisoned-flints-waterso-s
     
  2. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    Where is the buck supposed to stop? :unsure:
     
  3. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Did I not say Snyder should wade into the Flint River with cinder blocks strapped to his feet? To directly answer your question, that depends on when you're talking about. A whole lot of forces, most of which are government - regardless of party - have conspired over literally half a century to get Flint to where they are now.

    More recently, MDEQ didn't really give a shit that Flint did not treat the water for anti-corrosive properties - and tried to bury that they didn't give a shit - which is sort of ********ing essential since most of the pipes in the system are lead. MDEQ, like most state- and federal-level departments are full of lifer appointees and career bureaucrats.

    So, where does the buck stop? ******** if I know.
     
  4. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    I wasn't trying to be a smarty pants. A couple have already resigned over this and there will be more to come. It's becoming apparent that the buck made quite a few stops.
     
  5. jmartin1966

    jmartin1966 Member+

    Jun 13, 2004
    Chicago
    The initial mistake here is bad, but the cover-up is really abhorrent.

    How can people try to hide that water being consumed by children is contaminated by lead? Irreversible damage was being done every day. If I was a parent of a child in Flint, I am afraid of what I would do.
     
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  6. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    Don't drink beer but like cheese
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2016/1/21/governors-emails-show-debate-over-flint-water.html

    We have emails, and they are interesting:

    "Of course, some of the Flint people respond by looking for someone to blame instead of working to reduce anxiety," [Then Snyder's–chief of staff Dennis] Muchmore wrote. "We can't tolerate increased lead levels in any event, but it's really the city's water system that needs to deal with it."

    In a Sept. 25 email, Muchmore said he could not "figure out why the state is responsible" before noting that former state Treasurer Andy Dillon signed off on the city's plans to build a water pipeline from Lake Huron, which required a temporary switch to the Flint River during construction.

    So, he explained, "we're not able to avoid the subject."
     
  7. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    The guy's name is Muchmore?

    Wow.
     
  8. Q*bert Jones III

    Q*bert Jones III The People's Poet

    Feb 12, 2005
    Woodstock, NY
    Club:
    DC United
  9. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    jmartin1966 repped this.
  10. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    I can't take muchmore of this story. Depressing on so many levels that this could occur in America in 2016
     
  11. purojogo

    purojogo Member

    Sep 23, 2001
    US/Peru home
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well catching up on the Rachel maddow show it seems the state of Michigan (read Snyder administration) Is challenging the legality of EPA's order to get stuff sorted out .. As if things could not get more depressing ....part of me wants the federal government to disregard state law and send "emergency managers" who will have the combined authority that the governor and co. Presently hold (yes I am kidding , since I do not hate democracy )
    It was also mentioned that a documentary called "not safe to drink" will be aired this weekend across public radio stations ...
     
  12. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

    Jun 7, 2000
    Baltimore
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Gibraltar
    Snyder needs to go. Making mistakes is one thing. The original sin of not treating the water is a mistake by the departments in charge. Fair enough. You fire the people responsible and try to move on.

    But once the mistake happens and you ignore the people that start coming forward it's no longer a mistake. At that point it's ignoring your constituents. The smoking gun is there with that e-mail in the summer from his own team member that there was a problem in Flint. And yet they still did not acknowledge it until it started becoming a media story.

    The 2nd phase of this colossal fvck up deserves criminal charges, not just resignations. You put some politicians in jail for covering up and tolerating lead poisoning in children and I bet you nobody in that state will ever pull this crap again.
     
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  13. dna77054

    dna77054 Member+

    Jun 28, 2003
    houston
    Well said and I so wish it would happen. Unfortunately, almost every government employee is basically above the law.

    VA officials falsifying records and basically killing veterans--no consequences.

    Fast and Furious giving guns to Mexican drug lords, losing track of them and ********ing it up, attacking whistleblowers, people get killed--no consequences.

    Mayor covers up police killing for a year and quietly bribes family to get re-elected--no consequences.

    Complete incompetence/negligence at every level of government wrt to Hurricane Katrina--no consequences.

    EPA pollute river in New Mexico or Arizona (I forget)--no consequences.

    Destroy email records against the law (Lois Lerner, that NY police commissioner)--no consequences.

    No wonder many people do not trust the government.
     
  14. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Animas River in Colorado. The federal EPA is responsible for creating a potential Superfund situation there. They probably should tread lightly for a while.
     
  15. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My problem with this whole story is that we have a supposedly technocratic governor and President, yet everyone in politics just wants to exploit the disaster for the outrage fundraising emails. Snyder was bound to make mistakes in returning to fiscal stability, and his screw-ups merit a day in court. The EPA knew about the problem a while ago. But couldn't everyone just admit they ********ed up and fix the mistake? Pay the afflicted when the case goes civil, learn the lesson, and stop ginning up the outrage. Outrage does jack-shit for people with lead poisoning.
     
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  16. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    Exactly but you know that when this becomes a class action case and after 10 years of legal stalling.... before the appeals.
    Most of these people will die of old age while the lawyers still get their "share".
     
  17. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    The problem, when it comes to screw-ups with heavy bureaucratic involvement, is that there is little to no ability to effectively extract damages, and when it does happen, it's basically paid for by the aggrieved via taxes.

    This is the fundamental problem libertarians have with all-encompassing bureaucracy and a main objection to technocracy. Lack of accountability and/or a system of deep patronage and cronyism when they deign to make overtures to private-ish solutions. Bad news.

    And this only discusses the symptom, which is the environmental situation.
     
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  18. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Private parties who f*ck up file for bankruptcy to avoid damages. Six of one, half dozen of another.
     
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  19. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Lenient bankruptcy laws arise from cronyism.
     
  20. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lenient bankruptcy laws ceteris paribus are a good thing. Easy bankruptcy allows people to rebuild their laws, firms to start new enterprises while mitigating long-term losses, and a way to avoid having the state pay off lots of bad debt all at once. I'm sure economists who took more than one week on bankruptcy can elaborate.

    But I get what you're getting at, so I'm not disagreeing, just clarifying.
     
  21. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    The Donald is an expert at bankruptcy. It's almost built into TrumpCo's business plan. :D
     
  22. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    If debtor's prison was good enough for our forefather's cronies...

    I mean, without it there'd be no Georgia. :p
     
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  23. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    #73 taosjohn, Jan 25, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2016
    That's the strongest argument against a Trump presidency, isn't it?

    This is a man who managed to go bankrupt owning and operating a professional football team once upon a time...
     
  24. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What a shame that would be. I mean, how on earth could I live without having to get through Atlanta.
     
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  25. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The EM is appointed by and answerable to the governor, not to the people of Flint, and because of that anyone whose success or failure depends on being responsive to that small constituency was removed from the decision-making chain. This is exactly why the Emergency Manager law (which the Republican dominated legislature rammed through) is such a problem. It's a nothing more than a political consolidation tool masquerading as fiscal policy and, in abrogating representative government, it amplified the selective deafness in Lansing: they could/would not hear 100,000 mostly Democratic, mostly poor, mostly African American residents of Flint voicing their concerns until they began to feel political pain. It's not as if the state-level machinery suddenly woke up to the fact that they were poisoning children in Flint and decided to do better. A lot of people had to do a lot of yelling for a long time to get heard. The outrage is therefore a key piece of the solution. And it's appropriate that it's political, because the origin for this whole mess was inherently political.
     

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