The FA are having a laugh...

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by mixmastermatt, Dec 19, 2005.

  1. mixmastermatt

    mixmastermatt Member

    Nov 18, 2003
    St Albans, England
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    after everything that happened yesterday... RVP11 dissallowed perfect goal, Robbens allowed offside goal, Essein being a twat, Mourinho's no shaking of the hand, Dogbags constant complaining to the ref.... The FA are looking into some comments by Wenger about the dissallowed goal!

    What a joke this organisation are!
     
  2. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This cannot possibly be true as everyone knows the FA is under the complete control of David Dein.
     
  3. backline

    backline Member

    May 28, 2004
    Toronto
    The FA isn't exactly biased towards us even though it's controlled by Dein.

    If they started employing favouritism, we'd be the most hated team in England.

    I just think it's a numpty organisation that's good for absolutely fvck all. And of course there's Chelsea. Who knows how much they paid the linesman and the ref?
     
  4. Motterman

    Motterman Member

    Jul 8, 2002
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe it only seems that way. :(
     
  5. Catfish

    Catfish Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Chicago
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think the FA and most of England doesn't like Arsenal because they are seen as the French. I know it sounds nuts, but we never get a frickin break. If they looked at Essien's elbow to Lauren, he would be fined BIG TIME and suspended.
     
  6. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you're referring to my post......check whether your sarcaso-detector is working. It might need a tune up.

    ;)
     
  7. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Classic.
     
  8. Jasonisimo

    Jasonisimo New Member

    Jun 3, 2003
    Boston
    They want him to explain himself after he said that the Referee and assistant referee were "on the same team--Chelsea's team." That's consistent with everything I've seen from the FA where a manager basically accuses the Refs of being biased. The managers only put themselves in a bad spot with the FA if they outright say the refs are biased, not merely imply. Wenger has done that with his quotes, and it was stupid.

    Flagging for offsides was the incorrect call, but it was a close call on Van Persie that the assistant misjudged. Refs can make a mistake--that does not mean they play for the other team. Wenger should not have gone there. Statements to that effect make the referee's job that much harder. They are preposterous anyway, unless the match is in Germany. ;)
     
  9. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here is my question and if it was already answered at some point in the match thread, I apologize.....

    Was van Persie's goal disallowed because the AR believed van Persie to be offside or was it disallowed because he believed Henry was not "passively offside"...ie., he was potentially interfering enough with the play that he needed to be flagged?

    If the answer is the former then the AR got the decision horribly wrong, IMHO.

    If the latter, then there is room for debate, IMHO, especially since I've admitted in the past that I don't like the passive offside rule except in very extreme circumstances ( ie., player not interfering because he's on the complete other side {width-wise} from where the play occurs).
     
  10. Jasonisimo

    Jasonisimo New Member

    Jun 3, 2003
    Boston
    There's no way to know unless the AR comes out and says it. No AR would because it sets expectations that they will, and instead it will be addressed as an internal matter among the Refs and their supervisors.

    Now, even if you believe the AR got the call "horribly wrong" you have to have better criticisms of why that was (was he in the wrong position to make such a judgement?) than to accuse him of playing for the other team (if you feel you must speak about the refereeing particulars at all.)

    EDIT: I'm going to look at the replays again and try to "steal signs" from the AR. Maybe he signalled to the CR why he popped his flag.
     
  11. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, I should've been more articulate. I wasn't even intending to discuss the rightness or wrongness of Wenger's comments. IMHO, he would be better served to just move on and focus on the team.

    My interest was purely with regard to whether anyone knew or had heard the exact reason for the AR's flag....as it was too loud because of crowd noise (screams of joy...then agony) at the pub where I was watching to know if anything was said by the commentators, etc.
     
  12. TheImposter

    TheImposter Member

    Jun 15, 2002
    Centerville, OH
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The guys doing the ppv broadcast said at halftime that the officials had been asked (I don't know by who) to explain their decision, but "declined the opportunity".

    Interestingly, the BBC has a link on today's football front page (near the bottom) to a story dated July 15, 2005 on changes to the offside rule, with a picture of RvP next to the link. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4679881.stm

    They explain the changes in "passive offside" -- you're no longer considered involved in play, and therefore offside, until the ball is played to you, which would make Henry definitely not a factor (and also explains a lot of late flags -- the AR's are waiting until the ball is played to the player in the offside position -- this was a quick flag, however). However, the piece goes on to explain that the FA and UEFA decided not to adopt the new interpretation, so it only applies to FIFA competitions. This doesn't really seem to answer your question, as I haven't heard anything that definitively states why the goal was ruled out -- I think the Soccernet match report said that it was because of Henry, but there was no attribution to anyone actually making a ruling. But the failure of the FA to adopt the new interpretation leaves the possibility that an AR could rule that Henry was "gaining an advantage" in that he stood to be in position to get a rebound should Cech have made a save or Van Persie hit the woodwork. Still blows, though.
     
  13. Jasonisimo

    Jasonisimo New Member

    Jun 3, 2003
    Boston
    I understand, Yoss. You're always (usually? ;)) sensible, and I was simply making a general point using your words. No offense intended.

    The commentators that I heard did say, iirc, that Van Persie was definitely not offsides (he wasn't) and that they didn't believe Henry was interfering with play. (I didn't see the half-time analysis.)

    Of course, what do they know about it? I, from memory, think he was. He was running at the goal, he turned to run the center channel from his offside position when van Persie picked up the pass, he was bearing down on Cech... Henry could have simply jogged back to the center circle while van Persie scored if he knew he wasn't interfering with play, for argument's sake. I want to watch it again.
     
  14. DoctorK

    DoctorK New Member

    Jan 8, 2002
    NorthBank, Riverbend
    He had his flag up before the player received the ball. When the pass was made, you would have, from the far side of the pitch, though it was heading for Henry. The assistant made the call prematurely. Raising the flag so quick was, you could say, a case of premature gesticulation. :eek: Sorry, I'm trying to find humour...
     
  15. KevTheGooner

    KevTheGooner Help that poor man!

    Dec 10, 1999
    THOF
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Andorra
    Yeah, I had a feeling the linesman thought that pass was to Henry. Given his pace, and the 90 degree angle the linesman had to the pass, its excusable. I'm gutted, mind you, but I can see why he might have thought that.
     
  16. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I tend to agree with you. It's hard to tell someone with scoring instincts like Henry to stay out of the play in such a situation....but....if he had kept walking back toward midfield and not turned back around when van Persie was about to shoot....he might've sold the "passivity" (?) better and perhaps the ref would'v over-ruled his AR.

    All speculation, of course. And no, before anyone gets upset, I'm certainly not blaming Henry for anything.
     
  17. Jasonisimo

    Jasonisimo New Member

    Jun 3, 2003
    Boston
    That's not too bad...
     
  18. tmaker

    tmaker Member

    Nov 24, 2003
    Seattle
    It is precisely plays like this, why we refs are told to delay the flag until certain of involvement. This is not merely a FIFA/IFAB directive, it's the approach of virtually every FA around the world (unless you're in Nigeria or Turkey, where goodness only knows what you'll see from an AR). It is also plays like this why FIFA, without IFAB's consent, decided in their Q & A that a player had to touch the ball to be called offside, which opinion has since been revised.

    The whole offside problem is really simple: Offside is about AREAS of active involvement. At midfield, a long ball launched diagonally fifty yards to a forward is an easy offside call. Usually there's no one even close to that player, and therefore involvement is much easier to judge. The area of active involvement is much greater at midfield because there's more space.

    This area of involvement necessarily becomes smaller and smaller as one approaches the goal. IMHO, once the area is inside the penalty or goal area, a player had better well touch the ball to be considered actively involved. It's not only too difficult to tell who is "involved" in a play at that point, it's also a pointless distinction. For instance, on a free kick at the top of the penalty area, you can rest assured there will be twenty people all "actively involved" in the play. Some may be offside. The only player who will possibly change the outcome of the play is the person who puts the ball in the net. Any other call of offside on any player will be met with stiff resistance and hard feelings, and probably should be. One should endeavor not to deny perfectly good and beautiful goals on dodgy calls.

    Having said all of this, I have myself screwed up this exact same call when I've flagged the wrong person off. The difference is that I motioned the ref over and told him I fvkced it up, but you'll never see that at Prem level, as of course, FAPL refs are quite infallible, you know, and never make mistakes of such caliber.

    *cough*
     
  19. TheImposter

    TheImposter Member

    Jun 15, 2002
    Centerville, OH
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not a ref, but it seems to me that this is exactly why the new interpretation of the rule directs the ARs to wait until the player in an offside position plays the ball before ruling him offside, which is what results in seemingly late flags in competitions using the new interpretation. If he flagged because he thought the pass was to Henry, we wuz robbed.

    Edit: Never mind, as Tmaker's post (which wasn't there when I went to compose mine) actually addresses the issue from a position of competence, rendering my uninformed opinions irrelevant. :D
     
  20. tmaker

    tmaker Member

    Nov 24, 2003
    Seattle
    Aw, don't kid yourself. I dunno squat either. :) Besides, that's the best layman's interpretation I've seen all year, much better than dealing with some of the coaches around Seattle, lemme tell you...

    Wenger went a bit overboard on the criticism of the official. On the other hand, not nearly as overboard as Rafa Benitez, when trying to explain how Liverpool could take 20 shots and 17 corner kicks and not score: well, it's because the referees are Mexican and Canadian, of course!

    http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,1563,1670412,00.html

    The league is becoming the province of tools.
     
  21. TheImposter

    TheImposter Member

    Jun 15, 2002
    Centerville, OH
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks... must be because I just got my F coaching license by e-mail today. I feel so much more knowledgeable now! ;)
     
  22. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good post.....rep owed.
     
  23. Jasonisimo

    Jasonisimo New Member

    Jun 3, 2003
    Boston
    Sky Sports 1 didn't get the linesman in the frame as it happened or from the replay angle. However, on viewing it again, van Persie was clearly not offside as we all know, and since Henry didn't touch the ball the AR should have ignored him then.

    Following the pass, when van Persie shaped to shoot, Henry had the presence of mind to hold his run so that he was behind van Persie relative to the end line, and so not in offside position on the shot (or a pass, should that option have played out). So, in every part of the play, the AR was wrong. It happens.

    I tend to think that, hypothetically, if Henry was in front of van Persie on the shot, then an offside call is not that controversial. I see a slippery slope if the goal is allowed to stand in such a scenario simply because the player in offsides position didn't touch the ball.

    Envisioning a slightly different circumstance from what happened in the game: What if Henry had ran next to Cech? What if he had obstructed the view of the goalkeeper? What if he had flailed at--but not connected with--a cross-shot that went in untouched? What if he touched the goalkeeper but not the ball? Surely touching the ball is not the only way an attacker interferes with play.

    Help me out here, tmaker. You only flag if a player touches the ball? I thought I had a good handle on the offsides rule...
     
  24. Cannon

    Cannon Member

    Arsenal
    United States
    Sep 2, 2001
    Washington, DC metro
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wenger was also making the point that they screwed up plenty of other calls. Such as not red carding Essien. That ref and linesmen team had plenty of errors. Getting done in by two bad ref performances in back to back games should give Wenger some room to complain. Hell the FA even "punished" the Newcastle ref. Add to that the fact that guys like Essien had already got away with red card worthy incidents in plenty of games and I think it is fair to raise the issue of whether all teams are being treated equally.
     
  25. Jasonisimo

    Jasonisimo New Member

    Jun 3, 2003
    Boston
    True, he was.
     

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