The evolving and ever competitive forward pool

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by OWN(yewu)ED, Jul 26, 2021.

  1. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    The pecking order before the Gold Cup:

    1. Sargent
    2. Pefok
    3. Dike
    4. Zardes
    5. Hoppe

    The pecking order now:

    1. Sargent
    2. Pefok
    3. Dike
    4. Zardes
    5. Hoppe
     
  2. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Jordan and Zardes are certain to go, imo. Under GGG, Zardes has had a strong record against the decent opposition the US has faced. His club situation is also good. Jordan too is in stable club situation, in which he has been banging in the goals. He also had the NL goal against Honduras.

    That leaves two spots. The candidates are Pepi, Sargent, Hoppe, Dike, Soto, Toye, Gioacchini, Weah, and Cowell. A number of them can player positions other than striker.

    I am not claiming Zardes and Jordan are or will be the best in the field. They are in the most stable club positions and have been productive performers for the National Team.
     
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  3. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I also think people are being too reactionary with Dike.

    Frankly I think that guy just needs a break. He played the MLS season, then December camp, then January camp, then straight to the 2nd half of the Championship season, to back with Orlando for the MLS season, to the Gold Cup.................................

    This is all just straight from he jump as he started his pro career.

    I still have him 3rd on my personal depth chart behind Sargent and Pefok until somebody else wrestles a spot away. And there are certainly guys capable of doing just that (Hoppe, etc.)
     
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  4. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No one is a lock...

    The main battle...
    1. MATTHEW HOPPE, has to fill out and find the right club. But he’s the most hot right now.
    2. DARYL DIKE, needs to find a better club and not go missing when it counts like he has for the past two Gold Cup games.
    3. JORDAN PEFOK, he keeps scoring for club and country and he’s in. Plus, the Swiss League isn’t exactly a top 5 tier league.
    4. JOSH SARGENT, he’s fading fast. He has got to figure out his club situation and score. No one cares about the other crap. Score, Josh, score. That’s the only thing I’m going to judge him by this year. If he can’t start scoring, he’s going to fall off this depth chart.

    We’ll keep around, but we need to do better...
    5. GYASI ZARDES, he has such a fanboy club that revolves around him, but the fact is, if Gyasi plays against a good team... we will lose. That said, he is a good teammate who works hard. So if you want effort and not so much skill, Zardes is your guy.

    Rising Stars...
    6. RICARDO PEPI, he’s picking up momentum and he absolutely should be invited to learn the ropes at the next camp. We cannot lose to Mexico. And he’s hot right now.
    7. CADE COWELL, Another one whose stock is skyrocketing and we can’t lose to Mexico. Maybe more of a winger but he seems to do better as a technical center forward. Maybe he misses the next camp, but I would call him in for one this year.

    We’ll see how they do this year...
    8. FOLARIN BALOGUN, is this the year? Or does he become a bust? He needs to commit.
    9. MALICK SANOGO, another one that still needs to commit. He’s younger than Balogun so he still has some time. But look out for him this year.

    Still an option, but probably not a good one...
    10. JESUS FERREIRA, His problem is that he never settled on a position and now he appears as a MLS careerist.
    11. NIKO GIOACCHINI, he needs a higher level than the French second tier.
    12. RUBIO RUBIN, started the season out hot then faded fast.
    13. HAJI WRIGHT, I don’t think he’ll ever do enough to deserve a call.
    14. ANDRIJA NOVAKOVICH, same deal as Wright.

    Put a fork in him...
    15. JOZY ALTIDORE, Does he still play soccer?

    Don’t get your hopes up...
    Sebastian Soto, Mason Toye, Robbie Robinson, Jeremy Ebobisse, Aron Johannsson, Bobby Wood

    Let’s see if we can poach...
    SANTIAGO MUNOZ, they come after our players, we should go after theirs.
     
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  5. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Not sure how we can judge our forwards at this point relating to NT play, since Gregg's system is giving them no service and no opportunities. We've had 6 competitive matches, and in 4 of those have barely scored one goal. One we only scored on set pieces/PK, and one we smoked Martinique.

    Whatever Gregg thinks he's doing, it ain't working on the offensive end (while our defense has looked pretty darn good, regardless of the players). I blame the midfield he's throwing out there, specifically in this tournament.

    Been very disappointed in Dike in the GC too. His first touch is rough, and he's kicked the ball straight out of bounds numerous times.

    Hoppe is clearly the flavah of the week, and I have no issues with him.

    Pefok just had a nice brace.

    Sargent is likely the best overall player, but until he figures out his club form, I'm ok seeing him off the bench or not at all.

    If we're calling in 3 strikers, I go with Hoppe, Pefok, Sargent, especially since Hoppe/Sargent give you some flexibility to play the wing as well.
     
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  6. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're joking right? If you are serious then what the heck have you been watching the last two weeks?
     
  7. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    Even though I usually don't respond to posts that start with you're joking right, I'll dignify yours with a response.

    My post is meant to generate discussion after all. What I'm doing is pushing back against the tendency to overreact to a small sample of games. Dike, Hoppe and Zardes have played just played 2-3 games in the Gold Cup.

    I think we do learn something from seeing these players involved in high pressure matches with the national team. Hoppe has boosted his stock. No doubt about that.

    But I don't sleep on the existing body of work from these players. I try to weight it all appropriately.

    I'm curious as to your before and after rankings of those 5 players.
     
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  8. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    I'll add that in terms of attributes they bring to the table, Sargent and Hoppe fit in best with the team's style of play. Pefok is a pretty limited one-trick pony (although it is an important trick). Dike has to work on basic ball control skills. His first touch looks pretty rough to me. Zardes is a good pressing forward. He's unlikely to improve given his age.

    Hoppe is obviously the one who could rise fast. I think he has become one of the most interesting USMNT players to follow during the upcoming club season.
     
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  9. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    I see Dike as a young striker who is in the mix. The challenge for him will be to maintain focus despite the transfer drama. Aaron Long's NYRB performances declined after repeated bids were turned down. Mueller's numbers have been down this year. Unhappy players can be unproductive players.

    Sargent needs to play striker at club level.

    I don't have an opinion on who will join Zardes and Jordan, as young strikers are volatile commodities.
     
  10. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    What are you talking about?

    People, at most, are like "Dude is better than people claim."

    What a weird comment.
     
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  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We live in the cable news era. You're either with us or against us. There is no middle ground.
     
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  12. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let me preface by saying I have not seen enough of Prefok to make a real solid view on him. Now that said.

    Pre Gold Cup
    1. Sargent
    2. Dike
    3. Prefok
    4. Hoppe
    5. Zardes

    Current
    1. Sargent
    2. Hoppe
    3/4 Prefok/Zardes
    5. Dike

    Bottom line is that Dike has looked underwhelming. My impression was that his strength was his physical play...tough big guy to pose problems for defenders. What I have seen just doesn't fit that. I have seen him get moved off the ball or out of position way too many times for my liking. I see potential but right now he isn't it.
     
  13. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    I think it's Pefok (his mother's maiden name). He's got a nose for goal. He'll never be fast. But he can still improve his touch and ability to combine with other players.

    Three things impress me about Hoppe that I didn't pick up on watching snippets of his club games. He plays with anger and aggression. As if some team cut him when he was 14 and he's going to show them they made a mistake. I like that. He also looks to have a good understanding about how to combine with teammates. And even though he is still in pre-season shape, I can sort of tell he is a high work rate type of guy. He's probably not quite as good at the high press as Sargent and Zardes, but my guess is he can give the team some of that.
     
  14. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, anytime someone criticizes Zardes there is always someone willing to defend him.
     
  15. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    There's a lot of fanboys of a lot of players on here then.
     
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  16. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    Forward is to be the position where some of the takes are especially out there. People get passionate and crazy about various members of our forward pool.
     
  17. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Seriously..................Zardes is one of the players on these boards who doesn't seem to have any defenders.

    Here's what people say. Like forwards such as Wondolowski, etc......................Zardes just flat-out scores in MLS. He has a better goal scoring record than the guys in MLS that people demand to see. We know his limitations at the USMNT level, so people always demand to see the "hot young prospect." And that's fine. I do too. Every coach has squad players that they trust, and for Berhalter one of them is Zardes.

    Actually, he's rapidly moving up the career MLS goal-scoring charts. He'll pass Josh Wolff, Brian Ching, and Brian McBride very soon. He'll probably end up in the top 10 in the midst of Razov, Twellman, Buddle, and Kreis. All guys very much in the same vein as him.

    I don't know why folks feel the need to insult guys like this and point out their obvious limitations. Zardes, by the way, is already on 60 USMNT caps. He'll be passing guys like Eddie Johnson by the end of the year. 60 caps means you've been a contributor to the USMNT for quite some time.
     
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  18. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Of course, we’re all a bunch of nerds.
     
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  19. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    I think the most impressive thing about Hoppe is that he's come in as a winger and demonstrated a wide array of attacking skills. Dribbles people, makes incisive passes, combines, presses, scored a goal with his head, works his butt off. I think a lot of people were kind of questioning his all around game after watching him with Schalke. Most agreed he could make good runs to goal and finish, but he wasn't really asked to do other things at Schalke. Well, he was thrown out in a different position and asked to do a whole bunch of things he hadn't been able to demonstrate before and he looked very good doing it.
     
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  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    This is what happens when people claim a player is the obvious starter based off MLS (and route 1 Championship) play. People have way too reactionary about Dike since he started playing in Orlando.
     
  21. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’ve long mentioned that Hoppe is not a target striker. If we try to play him in that role, we’re going to be disappointed. If he does play CF, we need to play him how Atlanta United played Josef Martinez.
     
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  22. comoesa

    comoesa Member+

    Aug 13, 2010
    Christen Press's armpit
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sargent's existing body of work?
     
  23. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    I love Sargent's body of work. He was one of Werder Bremen's few bright spots last season. It was a bad team. And I also loved how he played in this year's matches with the national team. A goal or two would have been nice. But I look at what he brings to the table in the context of this team and find a lot of things to like.
     
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  24. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Well, now he's seeing what the next level is like.
    He'll adjust and improve.................or he won't.

    But let's be honest. His goal-scoring record in MLS and Championship play puts him near the top of our pool. So I understand why people got excited. Right now our top strikers are in Bund2 (Hoppe and Sargent), the Swiss League (Pefok), and MLS. The only forward we have in a top 5 league is Weah. For the USMNT I think of him more as a winger.

    For Christ's sake, Gioacchini is on this roster. He plays for one of the worst teams in Ligue 2.

    The second any MLS player does anything well for a couple games in a row, people demand a callup. Rubio Rubin recently. Now we're on to Ricardo Pepi.

    [Fingers cross that one of Hoppe of Sargent transfers this window.]
     
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  25. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    My expectation is for us to take four wing forwards and five central midfielders, gaining one spot there. That extra spot might go to Sands but I'm thinking it's more likely to go to an extra central forward.

    So three spots for:

    Sargent
    Hoppe
    Dike
    Zardes
    Pefok

    Dike is falling for me and I wouldn't take him if the world cup started tomorrow but I still think he'll be there in the end. Lots of uncertainty, but I don't think any of the younger players will get enough time in qualifying to make it onto the list.
     

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