The Efrain Alvarez Thread

Finally an official update... ligament damage that will only keep him out a couple, few weeks.

 

There is no chance of a switch. The only way we get Efra is if Brian is the coach. Brian won't become the coach because the brand he represent actively trashes MLS and Ussoccer on a daily basis which is why no club has decided to offer Brian a job. Unless Brian magically cuts of Gary and John Pranjic who constantly tell MLS and Ussoccer to go ******** themselves everyday then Brian will never get a ussoccer coaching job and Efra will never wear a USA jersey.

Even then why would we want Efra? He is 5th or 6th on the u20 depth chart if he came back to the USA. He has had minimal injury issues and he still couldn't even go a full 90 at the u17 World Cup level which is downright embarrasing. He has the same left foot of Alex Mendez but is even worse on defense and even lazier.

 

Not that I disagree with much of what you posted but, yes, we want Efra.

 

If we were strictly talking about egos, I would agree. However, who is to say that Efra's not currently looking at Pulisic, Reyna, Adams, Dest, Uly, etc. etc. and thinking that he wants to be a part of that group....

I do think that Brian is a bit too toxic for USSF right now given his ties to 433. Nevertheless, I really liked him in this video. I hope he focuses on coaching and distances himself from that crew.

 

USSF AND MLS can go **** themselves every day.

 

Coaching where? It’s been a year. No one, not even a local California DA (before the DA was terminated), has hired him. Why does no one on this board ever wonder why? Local DA’s don’t care that his brother is an agent. Everyone still refers to him as a coach, or wonders why he doesn’t just jump to a YNT job.

 

I am guessing he has been pretty nonchalant about finding his next coaching job. That Galaxy ending had to sting a little bit even though LAG were surely still paying him for a bit after he left. I don't see him running to the first weak opportunity that came his way. I see him being proud and pissed off and stubbornly want to steam for a little while until he gets inspired by something. I would guess he's starting to get the itch again now that we are into a new season, and this stoppage is probably making him a bit anxious and exciting about his own future. I do think it will be in a role where he can build something.

There are two reasons I don't see him going to an established big program: 1. established clubs have a hierarchy that is difficult to upset (meaning Kleiban would not be given full control), and 2. his experience has earned him a significant salary that is probably only realistic for specific situations. This gets more complicated when you consider his proximity to 343. How many youth coaches have there own medium and agency?

I think an ideal spot for him is a place like SD Loyal.... keeps him in the professional setup, new organization where he can implement his own philosophy from the start, Southern California, close to MX, can bitch and moan all day about need for promotion, and -- importantly -- a mentor type (even if just in perception) in Landon Donovan.

 

Thanks, no. Don't think he has anything in common with Donovan. Not even mentioning his hatred filled bro.

 

Take away from Mexico and increase our player pool. We need all the help we can get.

No one knows if he will be any good still

 

At the 10 in this cycle we really dont. We have options better than him

 

I want to say I believe he is a tad overrated. But not many teenagers in attacking positions getting Pt in MLS and iirc he was a core player for a Mexican squad he went further in the WC than we did. I think it would be dumb to just write him off and not want him. Like I said, we need all the help we can get and he would be a symbolic victory for the US. Jmo

 

There's a lot of common characteristics you see in prospects that lead to them becoming busts. Efra has just about every one of them. Between multiple reports about a terrible work ethic, a lack off of the ball defensive effort (encouraged by his coach growing up btw), and the fact that he can't even play a full 90 despite no injury history. Jose Gallegos, Matteo Ritaccio, Thomas Roberts, and Marcelo Palomino are ahead of Efra in the depth chart. Would it be nice to have Efra? Yes. Would he actually make the team? no.

Efra is nice to have for an offense but is a massive liability defensively. The Mexican 2002's were getting bullied by ours in the Concacaf final and then they took Efra out and the game completely changed. Efra's major WC contribution was his free kick goal in the semi finals and the Italy goal (and then his team blew it) but outside of that he really didn't help his team much. People can point to the fact that he got 4 goals in the tournament but 2 of them were against the Solomon Islands.....

honestly, seeing a player with that much talent put minimal effort in and be noticeably fat just angers me. A player with his technical ability should be starting every game for LA and if he isn't then there is a major red flag.

 

Alvarez is young enough to develop a work ethic. He obviously has the talent and skills to be a very good player, and it's not too late for him to commit the next level of effort to make the next step.

But it seems like that's the key thing that has to change. It might not even be that he doesn't work hard; it may only be that he doesn't work on the things he doesn't like to do (fitness, defense).

But we're looking at a peer set that could include Pulisic, Reyna, Ledezma, Pomykal and Alex Mendez before you even get to the prospect you listed. And right now his profile feels closer to a younger Mendez than any of the others.

 

The absolute definition of "luxury player." Talent for days on the ball, but extremely poor off the ball. I think he will continue to show some jaw-dropping moments, but don't think he will ever figure prominently into either Federations plans.

 

Freddy Jr.

 

100%. Go back and look at his stats in the U17 WC, what he produced, and when he produced it. Pulled in 3 games, all 3 of which (I believe) Mexico turned around after he came out. His goals came against a pushover and in 2 games when he came on late and didn’t have to do anything but get on the ball and shoot. I remember keeping tabs on his performances and writing them down but I’m going from memory.

And for the record, he was kicked out of the USYNT for major misbehavior. If things progress as I expect, you’ll be reading about this and other things within the next few months. It’s not my story to tell, I just know it’s in progress. Good riddance to him and his handlers. He is also not terribly valued by the Mexican Fed. You could see that in how they used him in that tourney, and he wasn’t called for the U20’s. I had a convo yesterday with a coach in the (former) DA that has contact with the Mexican fed and was told he was picked up more to thumb their nose at the US than anything.

 

Mexico has never played Alvarez up an age group for any camp, he's never been a consistent full-90 player within his own Mexico age group (whether that is as a sub, or being subbed out early), and he's been excluded from their first two U20 camps of the new cycle (they did call up RSL's Julian Vazquez to the U20s, so it's not as if they are excluding MLS players). Neither federation holds him in very high regard.

 

I remember the first time I was assigned to watch him play by a pretty big Euro club. It was GA Cup when he played with LAG U17. The club had quite a bit of film on him, but like most clubs, are very reluctant to put very much value in video.

As is typical the first time you scout someone, you do it in a general sense and watch from a broader scope. I vividly remember not being able to tell if he was the type that was just so smooth to which it made it look like he didn’t work hard, or if he just flat out didn’t have a work ethic. I had to watch him two more times, in a much more specific (only watching him and not the match) before I had confidence in saying he really lacked the work rate to make it at the highest level. The Kleibans would laugh if they read what I just typed, but it’s what I put in my report. Another scout agreed with my findings a month later and the club dropped its interest.

All that said, he is magic with the ball and sees the game very well. Just not well enough to be a player that can ignore his responsibilities. Not too late for him to turn it around, but it’s becoming more and more unlikely as the years go on.

 

What is disappointing is not that Efra lacks the work ethic. He was actually taught that working hard defensively as a 10 isn’t necessary (the 343 guys constantly say this publicly as well).

Efra could go from a very forgettable prospect to a legit champions league level player if he develops the on the field work ethic. Not just the people in year recognize this, Zlatan Ibrahimovic even said so. If Efra grinds off the ball like most other 10’s in the pool (aka all the non Kleiban coached 10’s), then he could become the best DA product out here. It’s all up to him, will he be an MLS player or European player?

 

There are some larger points here that I think are worth discussing.

1. How about we find some middle ground about Alvarez's ability? How can you be so good and so bad in such a short period of time? I think part of the problem here is how the media built him up. The media plays favorites with Mexican-American players. Thats how it is. It gives them more storylines when they can constantly talk about what country the player will play for, and try to throw shade at USSF based on the player's dual-nationality status, even if the federation isn't to blame (and sometimes they are).

The Jonathan Gonzalez saga is the best example of the freakout you saw from the soccer media. He's amounted to nothing so far. Look how much they love Alex Mendez, a very average player, whose never done anything to garner so much attention. They claim he has such a great skill-set that IMO he clearly does not have.

Despite not being a big fan of Alvarez and always rating him a little lower than most did, I still think the guy is proven to make a big impact against good competition throughout his youth career and has some real talent that a lot of the other options simply don't have. Some of these options in his position (Roberts, Palomino, Milijevic, C. Duke, B. Duke, Gallegos, Busio) are nice players, but they range from not very proven as top level central attackers against good competition to lacking any top level skills that can stand out.

We are still talking about youth football here. Alvarez is eligible for a U-20 WC and an Olympics. He should very much be regarded as a youth player, and how he can help the program in those competitions. These youth tournaments still usually amount to the team with the most raw talent wins. You can pick apart his game at the top level towards making it as a world class footballer, but I don't know how you can pick apart how he'd help in a youth tournament.

2. This notion that you can't have a luxury player in your team is pretty stupid IMO. I wouldn't make this such an open-shut discussion. It's a little more nuanced than that. The best attackers in the world all fit that luxury player mold. How much defense does Neymar, Mbappe, Messi, Ronaldo play? What about lesser players like Ozil or James? I think defensive effort matters if you don't have that top level talent for the level of league and team you are playing in. If you are at the top of the league and team, it doesn't matter. Teams will always prioritize a player's attacking ability. If you aren't at the top and are easily replaceable, you probably will lose out if you play no defense.

While I agree with a lot that Alvarez gives no effort, I think it goes beyond effort when discussing his skill-set. I think Alvarez is a kid with unbelievable technique. You can tell he's practiced free kicks, penalties, long shots a lot more than other players his age. He's aced the ability to strike the ball with power, accuracy and swerve. He's a real threat anywhere within 35 yards of goal to score if you give him space to shoot. He's also a pure goal-scorer. The kid is always looking to score. I think he has pretty good vision, but there's not much willingness to set teammates up. Alvarez is a striker, but he's obviously not a central striker, so his only role on the field is as a secondary striker.

Beyond the lack of effort, I find that Alvarez lacks in-game skills that you need from the run of play to be a top-level attacker. It goes beyond defensive effort. He doesn't move off the ball when his team is in possession, he doesn't combine well centrally, he doesn't look to playmake for the other attackers, he's not much of a dribbler when he does have the ball, and he's not all that creative. He's a brilliant goal-scorer, and when he's forced to pass the ball, he can pick out some great passes. He has value on a roster (and maybe in the lineup) because he can produce goals like nearly every other player in our youth player pool can't, but his actual skill-set is pretty limited.

3. Alvarez is very similar to a lot of these Galaxy kids. This brings me to what I dislike most about their academy. I don't think they coach the players well. If you watch enough games at the youth level of the DA, you see plenty of kids who play the LA Galaxy style all throughout the DA, but the Galaxy are the masters of recruiting these players to their academy. There might just be more of these types of players in their region, but they don't help these kids to broaden their skill-set. They recruit players who have unbelievable technique for their age. Their ability to strike a soccer ball in the way that will best effectuate a shot, pass, cross is unbelievable, and they retain this throughout their youth careers.

Yet, if you break the game down into different components of the game (technical, tactical, athletic, physical, creative, defensive), these kids are almost all excellent in the technical area, and are very unbalanced in the other areas in a way you don't see from the players at FC Dallas or Seattle or Philadelphia. To name these names, players such as Mendez, Alvarez, Llanez, KHF, Cuevas, Perez, Valdez, Rocha are all very similar in their strengths and weaknesses as footballers with the differences often being positional differences or areas that can't really be coached into a player (defensive work-ethic, athleticism, physicality).

4. Even some of their better products (no longer at the club) like Llanez or KHF are off this same tree. Don't get me wrong, Llanez is a very good player, but he's very selfish in his approach. He's always looking to score once he gets the ball. Great shooter. Much better corner/indirect free kick taker than passer from the run of play. Thats not a coincidence IMO. He doesn't combine that well with teammates or create well for others. He plays with his head down. The reason why he'll probably make it (and Alvarez might not) is due to advantages in the athletic and defensive components, which often comes down to things such as genes and work-ethic. These aren't skills he learned better than Alvarez.

It's similar for KHF. Unbelievable crosser and passer for a full-back. Maybe as good technically for a full-back as there is in the US system. The rest of his game is only average. I wouldn't say his defensive ability, soccer IQ or creativity (which is an underrated part of the game for a full-back) is anything too great. What will drive his value is overwhelming technique for a full-back. Llanez and KHF also were smart to head to Europe. I'll credit Gary Kleiban once. He gave them good advice there.

I think why these players are all very similar has a lot to do with how LAG develops (or doesn't develop) these players. You could definitely point out that I named all hispanic players and the things I said are usually a stereotype of hispanic players, but I think that is viewing it in too simplistic of a way.

All you have to do is look at a few other local players to to see the problem here is the club. Araujo is a hispanic player that was produced in South-Central California outside of the Galaxy academy. They had nothing to do with his development as a player. That came at Santa Barbara Soccer Club and Barca. They poached him at the end. Yet, Araujo is a hispanic player from their recruiting region with arguably the most diverse skill-set of any defensive player in our youth player pool. Another good example that shows the problem is LA Galaxy plays for LAFC, Antonio Leone. He's a hispanic player with one of the most diverse skill-sets in the youth player pool.

5. Thats not to say that LAG are worthless to our YNT pool. They produce some players, despite their very unbalanced skill sets, that are some of our best YNT players. Yet, I'd like them to start diversifying their recruitment, and to start improving their coaching of these players because I believe the recruitment strategy is problematic and the coaching is very poor for a club that has the resources they have to work with (Southern California region to recruit, residential academy, a lot of money, a location that a lot of great coaches want to live in, and a diverse region of different types of players)

We need to see a lot more players like Araujo, Dunbar, Ferkranus that we haven't seen enough of from LAG. They need to look at how a club like FC Dallas recruits and develops players because it's a lot better than how they do, and I don't think there's a substantial difference between what these two clubs are working with.

I suspect this is what we will see from LAFC, and why they will quickly become the best academy in Southern California. You already see it in their youth teams. They have some Galaxy style players, and part of that is because I think this region has more of these types of players, but some of their best prospects (Leone, Wilcott, Yantz) show that you can recruit a diverse style of player in Southern California, and hopefully they develop these kids better than LAG develops players. I don't think it's a coincidence that LAG has not produced one really good player through their academy, onto the first team and eventually into the NT. It spans multiple regimes running their academy.

6. There might also be a maturity issue with Alvarez. I know he's only 17 years old, but when you are trying to be a top-level professional footballer, weight cannot be an issue.That is such a waste of a .01% skillset in society for the game to let something so trivial (and an area that other high level professionals don't have a problem with) to be an issue. Ibrahimovic already told him he needs to lose weight, so he really needs to get into better shape. It's one thing when he's 13 or 14 to not be in better shape. You see this with some youth players, but now he's getting paid to play professional soccer. He needs to quickly get himself into better shape, otherwise you have to question whether he's cut out for professional football.

I think this is a lot more serious of a maturity issue than if Alvarez is a bad apple. He might be. I have no reason to doubt some of the things mentioned about his behavior, but even if true, I don't think that stuff is as serious as some think. I don't think that stuff is ever a hindrance if you are good enough. There are a number of very high-level players in the YNT system I've heard about with real behavioral issues/personalty issues, and despite these issues, these areas have never stopped them from having success and being highly rated by USSF and their club teams. This stuff is often purposely hidden to protect the players, so I don't buy that his behavior is any real hindrance.

7. Let's also not discount that LA Galaxy first team simply hasn't produced any good players from their academy. They produce some talented players in their academy, but all the players they tried to produce flopped (McBean, Jamieson, Villarreal), and the guys that left (Arriola, Wright, Llanez) have been more successful.

I like to judge all these prospects purely on their ability and not the opportunities they get, but I've started to realize that you can't ignore it. There's too much evidence that it matters towards which of our best young players develop into NT players, and which don't. It might not matter if you have the talent of Messi or Neymar, but it matters when you aren't talking about that clear World Class talent. With LAG, its unfortunate because they have a talented group of players either with LAG or LAG II (Araujo, Alvarez, Cuevas, Perez, Dunbar, Lopez), but I don't know how you could not rate them a little lower than if they signed elsewhere. LAG simply has shown no desire to develop these kids in the way that you see with FCD, RSL, Philadelphia Union, NYRB.

 

1. Agree. I think most people actually have a middle ground view of Alvarez, but the dialogue often gets positioned as "OMG we lost the best prospect EVAR to Mexico" versus "he's terrible." But I'll stand by that he's not even close to our best attacking midfielder 22 and under.

2. There's still room for a luxury player, but there's a lot less room. He need to be significantly better than you needed to be 20, even 10 years ago. Messi and Neymar can still do it, but the age of traditional 10 is long gone for a reason. The scale has simply moved; and even the stars are asked to play more defense today than someone like Maradona ever did.

From a USMNT perspective, the nature of tournament play combined with the international level of competition means you are going to need to be incredible to win a spot on a World Cup roster if you don't defend, especially in the central midfield.

3&4. Really interesting point; it's not just defense and it's not just Alvarez. I'm a big Llanez fan because of his explosiveness, but there's no doubt that he's lacking in certain parts of his game (I will say that he worked on defense in his USMNT stint).

I do wonder if that changes with the housecleaning that occurred and new coaching and new management in Te Kloese.

 

I still see this as too open-shut of a viewpoint on this subject. I think there are a lot of different ways to play the game, and the players a certain style of play requires. There are also few players that fit every style of play, and are every minute players in every game. If you wanted to present me with a team-specific scenario (including a roster, coach, venue, competition) facing a specific team, and tell me that Alvarez (or someone else) doesn't fit what's needed for that game, I might agree and the same would probably apply for many of the best young American players.

Some players do not play a well-balanced game, and are fit more for situational playing time than to play every minute in every game. Yet, I don't agree that this is due to a change in how the game is played now as opposed to years ago, and I also don't think its a player that has this specific type of skill-set that Alvarez has. I think there are many different types of players whose game fits situationally within a roster as opposed to every minute of every game. I don't want a 6'5 CB who can't move or pass the ball playing every minute of every game, nor do I want a winger whose all speed and effort playing every minute.

Unless you have 23 players who are very good at all parts of the game (and that never happens), you need different types of skill-sets, and you probably aren't going to have more than five players in any team that fit every in-game situation you'll face. Thats why this luxury player discussion is one that I think is misguided. It doesn't account for the fact that soccer is very nuanced tactically.

 

I think you really hit on something here that had bothered me also abot LAG and this may be your best piece ever. I think FC Dallas did have this very problem with their first batch of homegrowns and thinking about how your comments apply to Victor Ulloa who was the only one to punch through is illuminating. Many of those players were very skilled, but like the LAG players they weren't very athletic and didn't play very hard or great defense. Ulloa was probably the least skilled of the bunch but tough as nails and a very hard worker. FCD seemingly went to version 2.0 where you better have more than just skill but you also better have skill. Speed, quickness, size, strength, work ethic, IQ - the more of those added to the skill the better. They also diversified from only Hispanic kids like in the early days and now their teams are like the UN.