Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. It does not get any closer to a total catastrophe than yesterday's election. You cannot imagine a more divisive, more incompetent, more ideological president in office. And the democrats do worse than they did in 2004, lose Senate seats, lose House seats. Catastrophe is the only appropriate word!
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. Well I hope that Repubs think that because if so, they will sooner rather than later drift back to being part of the Dem base. And you don't think different groups of people have different beliefs? You think a black growing up in an urban area has his beliefs/needs set up different than a white rural kid? , Here is another problem. Dems have allowed conservatives to define liberal. Inner city blacks? I thought minorites were not part of a base. And again...'anti-religious sentiment' simply highlights my point of allowing conservatives of defining things. How do you 'fix' the base? Listen to them. Don't take into account that simply because they have always voted for you they always will.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. Please tell me you understood what the Guardian was up to. Please...
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. Easy on the hair-splitting. The base was there this year. It was fired up. It was angry. It donated record sums of money. It volunteered. It came to vote. It was badly outnumbered by the other side's base. It had no chance in hell of winning.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. The Republicans *are* ashamed of their lunatics. They're kept out of the party discourse. Racist whites may generally support Bush, but they have to live with the administration giving more responsibility to blacks than any previous presidency of either party ever did. Here's the problem: statements like this (not just limited to this single one) show that many Democrats have only contempt for religion and religious individuals. I'm religous, and once considered myself a Democrat. I would like to again. I think the party could reflect me better than the Republicans do. However, the party today does not want me or my vote. Most Americans are religious. Is it any wonder that nearly half of all Hispanic voters voted for Bush this year? I think not. Sneering at religion is not the way to win. If this trend continues, look for the Republicans to win even if they run a trained seal next time. Advice to the DNC: run someone like Harry Reid next time. Put him in as minority leader this time. A Nevada Democrat will be able to garner some of the Western states. He'd pull Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Idaho from Bush's column. Maybe more. These are states the Democrats would miss. Then again, could the Democrats stand having someone a religious man in charge? That may be what it would take. Running HRC is asking to get creamed. She would have a terrible time pulling in any currently Red states. People in Middle America don't like her. She would struggle in the Midwest and Republicans would have an easy time raising money to oppose her. Obama Barak presents his religious views as important to him. That will help him much more than being black would hurt him. (And it would hurt him among professed liberals more than Democrats would like to admit.) The queston is if his current reputation will hold up for a few more years.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. How has Bush failed to do this? Rove fully felt that the base was turned off last election because of the last minute DUI news and felt that they would be back in force this time due Bush supporting the marriage amend and opening the door for religious groups to get breaks from the gov in areas of counseling etc. Do you honestly think that the Dem base supported Kerry as much as the Rep base supported Bush? Bush picked up an additional 5 percent of the female vote in Florida, 5 percent in Ohio. In Florida Bush picked up an additional 6 percent of the african american vote, in Ohio 7. Nationally Bush picked up an additional 5 percent in the womens vote.
Re: Dear Mr. Michael Moore.... Dear Michael Moore, Thank you! For being you. Please ratchet up your shtick.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. I agree, it was badly outnumbered by the other sides base. Kinda supports my point.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. If the Democrats are to regain some national relevance, I do think the Southwest is the place to start. The Dems have a chance if they can appeal to the region's libertarian streak, as the GOP is moving away from libertarian towards evangelical, and polls showed that NV, AZ and NM were all in play to varying degrees. He is what the Dems need - someone who can package progressive ideas in a centrist language. And I really don't think faith is as much of an anathema to liberals as you think, but we shall see.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. actually he did in 2000 when he had to. the rules, I would think, are slightly different for an incumbent in that the most important thing should be his four years of service. *raises hand at mention of centrist republican disenchanted with direction of Republican party - dat be me. Equally galling for me is that a lot of very bright people are being shunted aside by the neocon/evangelical Republicans and the country is suffering as a result.* also - one thing to consider here. The current "leadership" of the Democratic party (like Kerry, Clinton, McAuliffe, etc...) were steeped in the tradition of the Summer of 68/ Vietnam/Watergate era and it's decidedly liberal ethos. This unfortunately for them, does not reflect the reality of most younger Democrats who didn't come of age in this time. This disconnect, as the liberalism was discredited so superbly discredited after 84 and buried by 88, is what is killing the Dem party. No new leaders, no new ideas have stepped to the fore. Obama is one of the new generation. Any others out there? How about Richardson (I'm asking cause I have no real clue about him)
Re: Dear Mr. Michael Moore.... COuldn't agree more. We all owe him a debt of gratitude. By being an obvious fraud, an embarassing ego-centric liar and a fatass slob, he completely turns off the average voter. He's very popular with people who dont' vote though. They really love him. ALl in all, you might want to consider whether he is secretly on the RNC payroll: "OK Mike, here's the deal: travel around the country shrieking about absurd conspiracy theories and trashing AMerica. It'll drive Republicans to the polls in droves as normal people are frightened into believeing that you might have some access to the WHite House." Should be worth 500,000 votes at least.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. If the Bushies actually gave Colin Powell any responsibilty, they wouldn't BE in the morass they currently are in Iraq (what made the man think he could get any headway in that administration is beyond me, but I digress...). The two of them are there for show - moreso Powell. HRC is THE name for the Dems. There's nobody even close. I don't want her to run at all, but who else would they turn to? If McAuliffe isn't fired (Clinton's bud), I start reading the tea leaves that HRC is going to be pushed for nomination by the poweres that be Obama is great except for one thing. Obama-Osama, Osama-Obama. And no I'm not joking. I have zero faith in the American populace.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. No it doesn't. Most Dems have problems with the extreme religious right, not with people being religious. For every comment like Dan's there is one about how Dems are godless, shallow souls. I suggest you call somebody at the DNC and ask them if they want your vote. You might be surprised at their answer. Here is another idea, get involved in the party that best represents you. Change is most effective coming from within. This may come as a shock to you, but most dems I know are religious folks themselves. Heck the person heading one of the local chapters of ACT in this area is a priest. Obama is already held in pretty high regard by the Dem party and it isn't inspite of his religious beliefs. You can count this professed liberal as having no problem with him being black or religious.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. Bush did not move to the middle. Kerry was simply a bad candidate.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. You are assuming a lot here. A hell of a lot. * Do Americans really want more of their paycheck taken away in taxes so that they can pay for their neighbor's healthcare? * Do Americans want more of their money dumped into Social Security, or do they want more of a say in how their retirement is spent? * Lower deficits? Keynes. Read him. When done right, deficit spending can be the right thing to do. * So what you are saying is that we should cut incentives to move jobs overseas. OK - tell me, how much do you need to tax me so that it isn't cheaper for me to employ labor in Thailand? American worker makes $50/hr burdened wages, Thailand worker makes $2/hr for the same work. Are you telling me you will find a way to make up the full $48/hr of labor? Hmm, I wonder how much my toasters will cost under your plan. Great thinking. The economy will take off! Real braintrust in the left-hand aisle. * Oh yes, always the argument of the left - let us get those wealthy bad guys. That's worked terrific for you in the past, hasn't it? I've said it elsewhere today, and it is worth repeating here: "The democrats' biggest problem is that they're p ussies. Seriously - there's not a more honest way to put it. To do the things that democrats really want to do would require some uncomfortable change in America, and eventually one of their candidates will have to let their balls drop just low enough to say so. For example: "We know you love your SUV's, but protecting our environment is much more important than you compensating for your short dick, or lack of one altogether, so we propose legislation that makes purchasing and owning SUV's prohibitively expensive." "We know that stem-cell research can potentially alleviate or even cure some of the worst epidemics of our time. Guess what? That means we're killing more babies. May God have mercy on our soul." "We believe that every American has the right to health care, which means we will take steps to move towards a socialized system. This means more of your tax dollars will be taken from you, but this is a cause that is worth it." I don't have time to go over every talking point on the DNC agenda this morning, but you should get the point. What you guys talk about in the liberal circle jerk that is the BS politics forum is not what Kerry talked about in his campaign. You want to win voters - be a little more genuine in your message. And yeah - don't be dillweeds and nominate a frickin' Senator the next time around. They don't win in America." Sorry - one more thing before I get off my soapbox. The mascot of the Democratic party of the post-Reagan years shouldn't be an ass anymore. It doesn't fit. Your new one? A chameleon. Even on this thread, you talk about modifying your message - even your views - to win back America. No. Wrong. Stupid. Why don't you instead galvanize your views. Get behind them. Believe them. Stick to them even when they're under fire. Support them. The biggest problem of many recent Democrats, Kerry and Edwards included, is that they thought that the only way they could win was to run Republican. Get your own ideas, and run with them. There are some good ones left that neither party is addressing.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. All those numbers don't mean anything? Dems losing out on what used to be pretty much the backbone of their base? When did supporting civil unions become part of the GOP platform?
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. Its still not. Bush did not run to the center in this campaign. That more people in the center voted for him, is irrelevant. I behave like a sarcastic prick on these boards and flame people, yet I still get rep. Is that because I'm more conciliatory? I doubt it.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. Numbers showed he did a pretty good job appealing to the center and had much more support from his base. Actually it appears to be pretty relevant, at least for four more years. My point isn't that Bush won because he is a centrist. He won because he had much more support from his base and then moved to secure as much as the middle ground as he could. He didn't have to campaign to his base because they were already with him. This was never the case with Kerry. Not only did he have to campaign to the Dem base, but also to the middle. Look at how many Dems voted for Kerry because he simply wasn't Bush, that isn't an energized base. Nah you just appeal to your base and enough people in the middle can appreciate a bit of humor.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. Great. And in 25 years, we might actually win something, at the current rate of social change. I can see why you, on the other side of the aisle, would recommend that course of action. Did you also donate money to Nader's campaign? Me, I would prefer it if the Republicans didn't control the Presidency, House, and Senate for the next 25 years. Call me crazy, but I think that if we didn't let them control both elective branches of the federal government, that it might increase the chances of something getting passed that we want passed and it might increase the chances of something not getting passed that we don't want passed. So pardon me for saying so, but it wouldn't kill me if we ignored the Granola Wing of the Democratic Party a little more if that's what it took to win elections. Being anti-abortion, anti-gay-rights, and anti-gun-control shouldn't disqualify you from being a Democrat.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. I think many good points have been raised here and Obie has it right that the Reps have agitators that like Michael Moore but there is one difference, no republican mascots went around calling Americans stupid like Michael Moore did. I honestly believe Michael Moore really turns the average person off when they hear that some of the military guys in his movie claim their quotes were taken out of context and that families of some of the dead soldiers were angry with Moore. I do believe he (Moore) in particular has hurt Kerry. Rush Limbaugh is a jackass but people who support Limbaugh don't start start near riots in Las Vegas like Linda Ronstadt did. I do think the democrats would be best sered to condemn Michael Moore, I know many have, but Kerry didn't really say much about him. Moore is hated by much more of middle America than Limbaugh or Coulter. You can energize your base without sounding anti-American, Moore chose not to go down that path.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. why would you want to be anti-gay rights?
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. The 'Granola Wing' of the party is pretty much ignored. Not working out so well. Anti-abortion? Where are the Dems that are pro-abortion? Again a case of letting Repubs define the race. Anti-gay rights. So gay's shouldn't have the same rights as others? If that is where you stand fine. I am sure the Dem party still wants your vote, but I hope that the Dem party is never a party that is anti-anybody rights. You can disagree with parts of your party and still be a part of the party. There are not too many fiscal conservatives that have jumped ship.